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That's a lot of words to say Apple is a corporation and acts like many others. I guess the author expected it to be like an iPod commercial when he started.

by mhurron 12y ago

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
Not true. Not all corporations are evil dystopian cults playing mind games and wasting everyone's time. It takes tremendous cash to fuel that kind of dysfunction. Most corporations cant afford to go off the rails to that degree.
- kyberias 12y ago
  Did someone say "ALL" corporations are evil dystopian cults? Someone said "many" though. Do you realize what is the difference between All and Many?
  - baq 12y ago
    many implies OP's experience would be commonplace, and it most certainly isn't.
- cmrdporcupine 12y ago
  From being close to someone who worked there for many years, from the iPod-is-just-new til a few years ago, I'd say actually this culture at Apple is a product of the return-of-Steve-we're-barely-surviving Apple-austerity mode. I don't know how engineers do there, but the marketing people I knew from there worked like dogs but when the money started to rain from the iPod/iPhone/iPad sky, I didn't get the impression that they really benefited from that. I work at Google now, there is plenty of money coming into this company and hard workers (and not-hard workers) are getting a large share of that. And while it isn't a complete paradise, the company seems grateful to its workers. I can't say I got that impression from anybody I know who worked at Apple or was close to people who did.
  - cmrdporcupine 12y ago
    I should add that from what I have heard the culture there is autocratic, and micromanaging at the top. The person I know who worked there was way down the chain working on remote and obscure stuff but had their work go across Steve's desk and be yay'd and nay'd.
zaphar 12y ago
I've worked at a few corporations and most of them are not they way he described Apple. I've never worked at Apple so what he said is hearsay for me and thus to be taken with some amount of skepticism. But the story as he shared is not at all normal or average in my admittedly biased experience.
baq 12y ago
even if half of what's in that post is true, it's unbelievably bad. i don't know where you were working, please share so the rest of us can avoid those work camps.
normloman 12y ago
This is not typical behavior for a corporation. I work for one, and believe me, nobody would be calling me during my wedding or giving me work to do in the hospital. If this is true, then Apple has an exceptionally poor work culture.
pXMzR2A 12y ago
> That's a lot of words to say Apple is a corporation and acts like many others. What you are actually saying is "shut up and take it." Not the best comment in response to someone voicing their concerns regarding workplace conditions. It is, however, the standard response by those who want to silence dissent.
allengeorge 12y ago
False. I've worked (briefly) in two large corporations, neither of which demonstrated this behavior. And, having talked to friends who work in larger companies...this is nowhere are common as you make it out to be.
ctdonath 12y ago
Agreed. Sounds like it acts like many (not all!) others. I've worked at a lot of places. I've been told that open-heart surgery would be counted as a vacation day. I've been in 3-hour meetings where a dozen executives bickered the whole time over how one toggle should be labeled. I've been where fully half the employees had been fired and continued working on the sheer grace/need of the owner. I've been given hard deadlines to complete hundreds of pages of documentation nobody would ever read. Etc...and plenty of people on HN have their own equivalent stories. Apple is a big company, and can't keep everything pristine and orderly, and still has to meet massive big-budget deadlines by every means necessary. The kicker: Apple gets results. One way or another, that system works; one company does not have one product take over fully half of an entire major electronics market unless they're doing something right.
- Chinjut 12y ago
  You seem to be implicitly conflating two different senses of the word "right". I don't think it was in any doubt that this kind of behavior can be to Apple's profit(+). What's in doubt is whether it is behavior which the rest of us should put up with; market dominance is not the end-all, be-all arbiter of desirable behavior, at least not to me. (+: Some people will try to get rid of this kind of behavior purely by arguing that it in fact harms an employer's productivity (via burning out their employees). This may be tactically effective, but I think it frames the debate on the wrong terms, conceding too much of the argument at the start; it allows for just as much abuse as maximizes productivity. The reason to get rid of this kind of behavior is not fundamentally because of its impact on the employer's bottom-line, but because the people affected by it are human beings who deserve empathy and dignity regardless)
- Apocryphon 12y ago
  For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
  - kzhahou 12y ago
    I would fain give up my imaginary "soul" in return for the whole world.

That's a lot of words to say Apple is a corporation and acts like many others. I guess the author expected it to be like an iPod commercial when he started.

by mhurron 12y ago

That's a lot of words to say Apple is a corporation and acts like many others. I guess the author expected it to be like an iPod commercial when he started.

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

Not true. Not all corporations are evil dystopian cults playing mind games and wasting everyone's time. It takes tremendous cash to fuel that kind of dysfunction. Most corporations cant afford to go off the rails to that degree.

kyberias 12y ago
Did someone say "ALL" corporations are evil dystopian cults? Someone said "many" though. Do you realize what is the difference between All and Many?
- baq 12y ago
  many implies OP's experience would be commonplace, and it most certainly isn't.
cmrdporcupine 12y ago
From being close to someone who worked there for many years, from the iPod-is-just-new til a few years ago, I'd say actually this culture at Apple is a product of the return-of-Steve-we're-barely-surviving Apple-austerity mode. I don't know how engineers do there, but the marketing people I knew from there worked like dogs but when the money started to rain from the iPod/iPhone/iPad sky, I didn't get the impression that they really benefited from that. I work at Google now, there is plenty of money coming into this company and hard workers (and not-hard workers) are getting a large share of that. And while it isn't a complete paradise, the company seems grateful to its workers. I can't say I got that impression from anybody I know who worked at Apple or was close to people who did.
- cmrdporcupine 12y ago
  I should add that from what I have heard the culture there is autocratic, and micromanaging at the top. The person I know who worked there was way down the chain working on remote and obscure stuff but had their work go across Steve's desk and be yay'd and nay'd.

zaphar 12y ago

I've worked at a few corporations and most of them are not they way he described Apple. I've never worked at Apple so what he said is hearsay for me and thus to be taken with some amount of skepticism. But the story as he shared is not at all normal or average in my admittedly biased experience.

baq 12y ago

even if half of what's in that post is true, it's unbelievably bad. i don't know where you were working, please share so the rest of us can avoid those work camps.

normloman 12y ago

This is not typical behavior for a corporation. I work for one, and believe me, nobody would be calling me during my wedding or giving me work to do in the hospital. If this is true, then Apple has an exceptionally poor work culture.

pXMzR2A 12y ago

> That's a lot of words to say Apple is a corporation and acts like many others. What you are actually saying is "shut up and take it." Not the best comment in response to someone voicing their concerns regarding workplace conditions. It is, however, the standard response by those who want to silence dissent.

allengeorge 12y ago

False. I've worked (briefly) in two large corporations, neither of which demonstrated this behavior. And, having talked to friends who work in larger companies...this is nowhere are common as you make it out to be.

ctdonath 12y ago

Agreed. Sounds like it acts like many (not all!) others. I've worked at a lot of places. I've been told that open-heart surgery would be counted as a vacation day. I've been in 3-hour meetings where a dozen executives bickered the whole time over how one toggle should be labeled. I've been where fully half the employees had been fired and continued working on the sheer grace/need of the owner. I've been given hard deadlines to complete hundreds of pages of documentation nobody would ever read. Etc...and plenty of people on HN have their own equivalent stories. Apple is a big company, and can't keep everything pristine and orderly, and still has to meet massive big-budget deadlines by every means necessary. The kicker: Apple gets results. One way or another, that system works; one company does not have one product take over fully half of an entire major electronics market unless they're doing something right.

Chinjut 12y ago
You seem to be implicitly conflating two different senses of the word "right". I don't think it was in any doubt that this kind of behavior can be to Apple's profit(+). What's in doubt is whether it is behavior which the rest of us should put up with; market dominance is not the end-all, be-all arbiter of desirable behavior, at least not to me. (+: Some people will try to get rid of this kind of behavior purely by arguing that it in fact harms an employer's productivity (via burning out their employees). This may be tactically effective, but I think it frames the debate on the wrong terms, conceding too much of the argument at the start; it allows for just as much abuse as maximizes productivity. The reason to get rid of this kind of behavior is not fundamentally because of its impact on the employer's bottom-line, but because the people affected by it are human beings who deserve empathy and dignity regardless)
Apocryphon 12y ago
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
- kzhahou 12y ago
  I would fain give up my imaginary "soul" in return for the whole world.