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For the conversation so far, "Communism" only refers to the system that decides and maintains how resources are allocated. (Just like how I've been using capita

For the conversation so far, "Communism" only refers to the system that decides and maintains how resources are allocated. (Just like how I've been using capitalism). As I understand it, communism decides an allocation of resources to maximise a utility function which isn't driven by individual demands but by some objective ranking of value. From my side I am curious what you mean by economic democracy.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>As I understand it, communism decides an allocation of resources to maximise a utility function which isn't driven by individual demands but by some objective ranking of value. That is incorrect. Communism refers to the set of economic systems which involve a stateless, moneyless, classless society in which the means of production are operated by workers for human need (ie: individual and collective demands). Or at least, that is how the term "Communism" is used by self-professed communists, as opposed to by self-professed enemies of communism, who of course use the term in their propaganda to mean "Soviet-style dictatorship". But if you use any term as its enemies imply it to be defined in their propaganda, you will of course never get the bottom of the matter. > (Just like how I've been using capitalism). This is very wrong, as well. "Capitalism" means the set of economic systems in which the means of production are primarily controlled by private owners (who are distinct from the state), and operated for profit (via the sale of commodities in some sort of market), by wage laborers (who survive by offering their labor in a labor market), coordinated via the exchange of currency (again, some kind of market). Systems can vary from "textbook" capitalism in multiple directions, such as: by the state intervening to some great or small degree in the economy (social-democratic capitalism), by finance becoming the dominant economic power above and over commodities manufacturers (financialized capitalism), by raw-materials producers becoming the dominant economic power (rentier capitalism), by private rentiers merging state power into their own personal power (feudalism), by the replacement of capital-labor separation with economic democracy (socialism), by the foundational subsidization of "market" businesses by the state (state capitalism), by the complete nationalization of production and its turning towards the state's national goals (fascism), by the removal of the state and its regime of private exclusive-possession "property" titles to resources but the keeping of the market economy (mutualism), by the removal of the state and its private-property regime and the removal of markets in favor of a debt/gift economy (anarchism), etc. >From my side I am curious what you mean by economic democracy. The means of production are owned and ultimate decisions are made by the people who actually do the work operating those means of production. It means exactly what it sounds like: democracy in the workplace and the commons, either direct or representative.
- grinnbearit 12y ago
  Since I'm interested in the allocation of resources and how its maintained. Lets take an example of a gold mine in an ideal communist society. People like gold because its shiny (demand) and Miners own their mining equipment (the means of production). There is no money, state or class to determine who gets what, when and how much is to be produced. Under economic democracy, how would the mined gold be distributed? Also, how are the miners incentivised to produce more and how do they decide how much more they should produce? Since It takes effort and time to mine gold.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago

>As I understand it, communism decides an allocation of resources to maximise a utility function which isn't driven by individual demands but by some objective ranking of value. That is incorrect. Communism refers to the set of economic systems which involve a stateless, moneyless, classless society in which the means of production are operated by workers for human need (ie: individual and collective demands). Or at least, that is how the term "Communism" is used by self-professed communists, as opposed to by self-professed enemies of communism, who of course use the term in their propaganda to mean "Soviet-style dictatorship". But if you use any term as its enemies imply it to be defined in their propaganda, you will of course never get the bottom of the matter. > (Just like how I've been using capitalism). This is very wrong, as well. "Capitalism" means the set of economic systems in which the means of production are primarily controlled by private owners (who are distinct from the state), and operated for profit (via the sale of commodities in some sort of market), by wage laborers (who survive by offering their labor in a labor market), coordinated via the exchange of currency (again, some kind of market). Systems can vary from "textbook" capitalism in multiple directions, such as: by the state intervening to some great or small degree in the economy (social-democratic capitalism), by finance becoming the dominant economic power above and over commodities manufacturers (financialized capitalism), by raw-materials producers becoming the dominant economic power (rentier capitalism), by private rentiers merging state power into their own personal power (feudalism), by the replacement of capital-labor separation with economic democracy (socialism), by the foundational subsidization of "market" businesses by the state (state capitalism), by the complete nationalization of production and its turning towards the state's national goals (fascism), by the removal of the state and its regime of private exclusive-possession "property" titles to resources but the keeping of the market economy (mutualism), by the removal of the state and its private-property regime and the removal of markets in favor of a debt/gift economy (anarchism), etc. >From my side I am curious what you mean by economic democracy. The means of production are owned and ultimate decisions are made by the people who actually do the work operating those means of production. It means exactly what it sounds like: democracy in the workplace and the commons, either direct or representative.

grinnbearit 12y ago
Since I'm interested in the allocation of resources and how its maintained. Lets take an example of a gold mine in an ideal communist society. People like gold because its shiny (demand) and Miners own their mining equipment (the means of production). There is no money, state or class to determine who gets what, when and how much is to be produced. Under economic democracy, how would the mined gold be distributed? Also, how are the miners incentivised to produce more and how do they decide how much more they should produce? Since It takes effort and time to mine gold.