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Conversely, given that the whistle is not blown at most tech companies, team members aren't quitting, and job ads are not accompanied by catcalls, we can conclu
by yummyfajitas 12y ago
Conversely, given that the whistle is not blown at most tech companies, team members aren't quitting, and job ads are not accompanied by catcalls, we can conclude that discrimination is rarely/never happening in the tech industry.
That's the probabilistic converse of your claim. Do you endorse it? If not, why not?
- tedunangst 12y agoI don't think it was implied that a particular form of hiring funnel discrimination was the only form of discrimination in tech.
- yummyfajitas 12y agoWhat forms of discrimination does tptacek's argument not apply to? Is there some reason that irrational taste-based discrimination would not trigger candidate embarrassment and self-selection, but rational lawsuit-fear based discrimination would? (More precisely, rational in a world where tptacek's hypothetical perfect market self-regulation mechanism did not apply, but irrational in such a world.)
- tedunangst 12y agoa world where women are hired but not promoted? Or where the discrimination falls under the heading of "culture fit" instead of explicit policy? Or even where women are hired and promoted equally, but otherwise treated like shit in the office?
- yummyfajitas 12y agoWhy would non-promotion or "treated like shit" not trigger the negative consequences tptacek proposes? Would he and his fellow travelers not blow the whistle, quit or catcall their job ads?
- tedunangst 12y agoWhat's perceived as discrimination varies. Society at large disapproves of discrimination, so everyone believes "it's not me". It's harder to pretend something as overt as a policy against hiring women is anything but discrimination, as opposed to "just having fun" or "random chance".
- SamReidHughes 12y ago> What forms of discrimination does tptacek's argument not apply to? Job ads that say let's bro down and crush some code? (Generally speaking if women are a small percentage of the applicant pool, it would almost certainly be the case that the optimal hiring funnel makes you more likely to hire a given man than a given woman.)
- yummyfajitas 12y agoThat would be discrimination on the part of the female applicants, not on the part of the employer. The woman is not hired because she chose not to apply, not because she was rejected by the employer's choice.
- SamReidHughes 12y agoJust like how black people discriminate between businesses that have "whites only" signs in front and businesses that don't.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- tptacek 12y agoThe kind of discrimination alluded to upthread? No, I do not think it's common. That's my point.
- yummyfajitas 12y agoWhat kind of discrimination (if any) do you believe can be common without triggering the negative consequences you describe? I ask because you seem to be describing a world in which discrimination basically can't exist due to market self-regulation - i.e., all our industries problems are basically solved, which seems to differ from your usual position.
- tptacek 12y agoWith apologies, I do not believe you are discussing this in good faith, and I think the distinction I am drawing is clear enough.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- hueving 12y agoJust respond with a clear answer if there is a distinction. Don't resort to ad homs.
- chetanahuja 12y agoFwiw I think the parent of your comment asked a very reasonable question and it's not really clear what distinction you are drawing from your GP comment.
- pen2l 12y agoThat was a beautiful deflection. Your career is in politics tptacek.
- yummyfajitas 12y agoYour second sentence is more hostile than needed. One of the reasons I ask Tom these questions that he is one of the more rational folks on HN, particularly on other issues. It's pretty clear that he realizes he made a mistake, hence the deflection. Making a mostly rational person feel attacked is only likely inhibit their logical mind.