7 ms·

Given the state of affairs for postdocs, how should we interpret claims of a "STEM shortage"?

noobiemcfoob 12y ago
On one hand, it appears this article is talking about it trying to keep these postdocs in academia (noting the statement in the article of equal numbers of NYU postdocs leaving academia following the position cutting). Ignoring that, as someone involved in a group with 4 open positions that have been open for the better part of a year, the shortage is there. It's not so much that there is a shortage of people capable of applying who "kind of" meet the requirements, but truly capable engineers in this field who could pick up the work required are definitely in short supply, PhDs or no.
- bkcooper 12y ago
  Ignoring that, as someone involved in a group with 4 open positions that have been open for the better part of a year, the shortage is there. It's not so much that there is a shortage of people capable of applying who "kind of" meet the requirements, but truly capable engineers in this field who could pick up the work required are definitely in short supply, PhDs or no. If the need for these positions to be filled is sufficiently low that your group can be that picky for almost a year, it would seem demand is pretty low, thus poor evidence for a shortage.
- tjradcliffe 12y ago
  This is not a shortage of people, it's an unwillingness or inability to raise salaries to the point where your group is attracting the people it wants. I appreciate that the ability to pay people enough to attract them is a problem that is very difficult for institutions and organizations to solve, but living on a sub-standard salary with no job security and few career prospects (how many tenure-track opportunities are expected to open up in the next five years for the people who would fill those positions?) is a difficult problem for highly skilled post-doctoral candidates to solve, too.
  - noobiemcfoob 12y ago
    I definitely recognize the point of few career prospects making potential applicants hesitant. That's a point I hadn't considered before. As to the price point, I'm not convinced. Raising the potential salaries for these positions would attract people, obviously, but the price point would attract them away from their current jobs, leaving a vacancy at another company. If this is the situation, raising the salary doesn't suddenly generate new engineers with the necessary skills. The problem is the existing engineers with the necessary skills are already hired and fulfilled leaving only the option of headhunting. At a more practical level, yes, if we hired these positions, our capabilities would be extended greatly. Hell, hiring one would be enough. However, there is not enough value in that new hire to justify raising the salary above it's current position. And lastly, no one has been offered the position and then rejected it because of the pay. The last 3 offers given out were immediately accepted. We just haven't found anyone worth giving an offer for these remaining 4.
    - mcmancini 12y ago
      > And lastly, no one has been offered the position and then rejected it because of the pay. The last 3 offers given out were immediately accepted. Why would they when there's no meaningful difference in pay between postdoc positions? What would happen if they tried to negotiate for something approaching an industry equivalent salary/benefits?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - irremediable 12y ago
      > As to the price point, I'm not convinced. Raising the potential salaries for these positions would attract people, obviously, but the price point would attract them away from their current jobs, leaving a vacancy at another company. I'm unconvinced by this argument. Sure, it's true on the level of individual labs/companies; but if every lab paid postdocs something closer to industry, then probably more people would be drawn towards that whole vague sector of "technical work". Edit: Or phrase it another way. The shortage of skilled postdocs, you'd presumably agree, is bigger than the shortage of skilled engineers in industry. If you offered higher postdoc salaries, the shortage would be spread more evenly across academia and business.
- mcmancini 12y ago
  > It's not so much that there is a shortage of people capable of applying who "kind of" meet the requirements, but truly capable engineers in this field who could pick up the work required are definitely in short supply, PhDs or no. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you're saying that you're failing to find people who are ready to work on day one without additional training?
tjradcliffe 12y ago
As complete nonsense from people who believe the labour market should be replaced by socialist managers able to dictate the price independently of actual supply and demand. These people are often described in the press as "business leaders".
6stringmerc 12y ago
There's a shortage of jobs for people with genuine STEM degrees to fill, in academic research specifically, so that's a pretty strong start. I don't have the numbers offhand, but NIH funding has been significantly reduced. States, such as Wisconsin, have reduced contributions to higher education. Thus, we are in the midst of a shortage of effective STEM research and development. It is a self-inflicted wound.
civilian 12y ago
STEM is a grouping that doesn't make sense. Technology, Engineering, Math--- yes, there's a shortage. Sciences like physics and chemistry (especially petrochemistry!) are definitely still needed. Sciences like biology and life sciences have far too many graduates. Graduates like me (B.S. in Biochem) and I'm now doing webdev!!!
- Chinjut 12y ago
  I don't think the situations for math or physics are perfect either. There are far fewer academic positions for mathematicians, physicists, chemists, etc., than people who are qualified to do and would like to do such work (that is, to research math qua math, or physics qua physics, etc.). It's just that such people can currently get hired to do other things. It's good that they have fallbacks. But it's still not clear that we as a society really value or want mathematicians or physicists, as opposed to coders and quants.
ForHackernews 12y ago
It's a lie. There's a glut of science and math PhDs, and there's only a "shortage" of engineering and technology workers willing to accept low wages. The "STEM shortage" meme is pushed by capitalists who want a cheap and compliant workforce.

On one hand, it appears this article is talking about it trying to keep these postdocs in academia (noting the statement in the article of equal numbers of NYU postdocs leaving academia following the position cutting). Ignoring that, as someone involved in a group with 4 open positions that have been open for the better part of a year, the shortage is there. It's not so much that there is a shortage of people capable of applying who "kind of" meet the requirements, but truly capable engineers in this field who could pick up the work required are definitely in short supply, PhDs or no.

bkcooper 12y ago
Ignoring that, as someone involved in a group with 4 open positions that have been open for the better part of a year, the shortage is there. It's not so much that there is a shortage of people capable of applying who "kind of" meet the requirements, but truly capable engineers in this field who could pick up the work required are definitely in short supply, PhDs or no. If the need for these positions to be filled is sufficiently low that your group can be that picky for almost a year, it would seem demand is pretty low, thus poor evidence for a shortage.
tjradcliffe 12y ago
This is not a shortage of people, it's an unwillingness or inability to raise salaries to the point where your group is attracting the people it wants. I appreciate that the ability to pay people enough to attract them is a problem that is very difficult for institutions and organizations to solve, but living on a sub-standard salary with no job security and few career prospects (how many tenure-track opportunities are expected to open up in the next five years for the people who would fill those positions?) is a difficult problem for highly skilled post-doctoral candidates to solve, too.
- noobiemcfoob 12y ago
  I definitely recognize the point of few career prospects making potential applicants hesitant. That's a point I hadn't considered before. As to the price point, I'm not convinced. Raising the potential salaries for these positions would attract people, obviously, but the price point would attract them away from their current jobs, leaving a vacancy at another company. If this is the situation, raising the salary doesn't suddenly generate new engineers with the necessary skills. The problem is the existing engineers with the necessary skills are already hired and fulfilled leaving only the option of headhunting. At a more practical level, yes, if we hired these positions, our capabilities would be extended greatly. Hell, hiring one would be enough. However, there is not enough value in that new hire to justify raising the salary above it's current position. And lastly, no one has been offered the position and then rejected it because of the pay. The last 3 offers given out were immediately accepted. We just haven't found anyone worth giving an offer for these remaining 4.
  - mcmancini 12y ago
    > And lastly, no one has been offered the position and then rejected it because of the pay. The last 3 offers given out were immediately accepted. Why would they when there's no meaningful difference in pay between postdoc positions? What would happen if they tried to negotiate for something approaching an industry equivalent salary/benefits?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - irremediable 12y ago
    > As to the price point, I'm not convinced. Raising the potential salaries for these positions would attract people, obviously, but the price point would attract them away from their current jobs, leaving a vacancy at another company. I'm unconvinced by this argument. Sure, it's true on the level of individual labs/companies; but if every lab paid postdocs something closer to industry, then probably more people would be drawn towards that whole vague sector of "technical work". Edit: Or phrase it another way. The shortage of skilled postdocs, you'd presumably agree, is bigger than the shortage of skilled engineers in industry. If you offered higher postdoc salaries, the shortage would be spread more evenly across academia and business.
mcmancini 12y ago
> It's not so much that there is a shortage of people capable of applying who "kind of" meet the requirements, but truly capable engineers in this field who could pick up the work required are definitely in short supply, PhDs or no. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but you're saying that you're failing to find people who are ready to work on day one without additional training?

tjradcliffe 12y ago

As complete nonsense from people who believe the labour market should be replaced by socialist managers able to dictate the price independently of actual supply and demand. These people are often described in the press as "business leaders".

6stringmerc 12y ago

There's a shortage of jobs for people with genuine STEM degrees to fill, in academic research specifically, so that's a pretty strong start. I don't have the numbers offhand, but NIH funding has been significantly reduced. States, such as Wisconsin, have reduced contributions to higher education. Thus, we are in the midst of a shortage of effective STEM research and development. It is a self-inflicted wound.

civilian 12y ago

STEM is a grouping that doesn't make sense. Technology, Engineering, Math--- yes, there's a shortage. Sciences like physics and chemistry (especially petrochemistry!) are definitely still needed. Sciences like biology and life sciences have far too many graduates. Graduates like me (B.S. in Biochem) and I'm now doing webdev!!!

Chinjut 12y ago
I don't think the situations for math or physics are perfect either. There are far fewer academic positions for mathematicians, physicists, chemists, etc., than people who are qualified to do and would like to do such work (that is, to research math qua math, or physics qua physics, etc.). It's just that such people can currently get hired to do other things. It's good that they have fallbacks. But it's still not clear that we as a society really value or want mathematicians or physicists, as opposed to coders and quants.

ForHackernews 12y ago

It's a lie. There's a glut of science and math PhDs, and there's only a "shortage" of engineering and technology workers willing to accept low wages. The "STEM shortage" meme is pushed by capitalists who want a cheap and compliant workforce.