6 ms·

Fifteen years while loved ones of the deceased spend the rest of their lives in mourning? Thank God I'm not.

nfoz 12y ago
Why, what would be your concern? Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/Uni... Murder rate for 2011 (Homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants): Germany: 0.86. USA: 5. That's nearly 6x as many murders per capita in the USA than Germany.
- mineshaftgap 12y ago
  Germans don't cross an empty street against the light and register with the police every time they move. I am not sure you can really compare the two.
  - sgift 12y ago
    So, now I'm not a german anymore because I did cross a street against the light? (multiple times even) You're cruel :(
  - song 12y ago
    I've spent quite some time in Germany and well I'm sorry to shatter your bubble but Germans do cross an empty street when the light is red. I've even seen people party in nightclubs and go outside to drink vodka or other drinks they bought in their car. And to further tear your argument, Spanish who have a "reputation" in Europe of crossing by red light and of having a bit more of loose attitude towards rules have a similar murder rate. 0.9 for Spain, 0.86 for Germany. I think the factors are external rather than internal. I don't know exactly what causes it though. The higher availability of guns in the US? The fact that the prison system in the US does not reform but punishes instead and convert first time convicts into hardened criminals? Other factors? I don't know but having lived in all three countries, I don't see that many differences in term of people's character that could explain the difference in murder rate.
    - onnoonno 12y ago
      > I don't know but having lived in all three countries, I don't see that many differences in term of people's character that could explain the difference in murder rate. No offense, but could this be selection bias? You have certainly only talked to a selected subset of people.. I think if 80% of the U.S. population would want a thorough reform of their justice system, it would happen. What exactly would an 'external' factor be for you?
      - song 12y ago
        Sure, it might be a selection bias, I was a student in all three cases and, by definition, students tend to be more educated. What I mean by external factor is the laws, the way the criminal system is setup, the lack or not of reinsertion opportunities for ex-cons and so on. You might say that in a democracy all of this is decided by the people, but there's a certain inertia that sets in that mean that people have very little influence in changing things and there are powerful forces that try to keep things as they are (for profit or different reasons).
        onnoonno 12y ago
        Ah ok, I see. Well for a while I was looking at those factors to be external rather than internal as well - but I am more and more convinced that people get exactly the government they want, all the time.
    - Zak 12y ago
      The higher availability of guns in the US? The fact that the prison system in the US does not reform but punishes instead and convert first time convicts into hardened criminals? Other factors? Probably not the guns. Germany has about a third the rate of gun ownership the US does and its rates of serious violent crimes, both with and without guns are much less than a third those of the US. All of Scandinavia, Switzerland and Iceland have high rates of gun ownership and even lower crime rates. The prisons might have an impact, but I think at least as important is the post-release re-integration in to society. The parole system in the US is set up more to ensure that released prisoners can be easily subjected to further punishment if need be than to help them lead productive lives. An important factor is that those countries have a distinct culture and sense of community. People are more willing to hurt others they don't see as part of a group to which they are loyal. I actually see the lack of cultural homogeneity as a strength for the US overall, but I think it tends to lead to more crime. Another important factor is the relative lack of poverty in northwestern Europe. Someone who sees none of their prospective ways to earn a living legally leading to a comfortable lifestyle is more likely to consider illegal and antisocial approaches.
joshstrange 12y ago
FYI "because I want the person to suffer" is not a valid reason to lock someone up. We lock people up as a punishment just like your parents may have sent you to your room when you were acting up. We do it under the thinking of they won't do it again once they've paid their debt but that thinking is flawed on SO many level. Among them are: 1. Prison does NOT reform people in fact it pushes many deeper into a life of crime 2. Even after they have "paid their debt to society" they are still ostracised and disadvantaged 3. Unlike your parents there is no mercy/compassion in our judicial system AFAICT or if there is it's only directed at upper-class white males....
- mineshaftgap 12y ago
  People are also locked up to keep them away from ordinary citizens.
- yodsanklai 12y ago
  > FYI "because I want the person to suffer" is not a valid reason to lock someone up. I don't know if it's valid, but it certainly a reason why we lock people up. "An eye for an eye" is a universal principle and I assume victims expect some type of revenge. Maybe that's something we should refrain from in a perfect world, but I don't think we're there yet!
  - joshstrange 12y ago
    "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" I think that concept is fundamentally flawed... I don't think it's sustainable or really fair.
  - venomsnake 12y ago
    And how can we murder the Aurora shooter 17 times?
  - JanezStupar 12y ago
    Don't know about you, but to me punishment is about first and foremost protecting the society from persons actions and about offering a chance for redemption/improvement. Vengeance is never a good agenda. Eye for an eye is an universal sadist principle.
mikeash 12y ago
The way you compare them, you make it sound like increasing the prison term will decrease the time the loved ones spend mourning.
atlantic 12y ago
Which deceased is that? This person was convicted of robbery, not murder.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  The hypothetical deceased German that would lead to the hypothetical 15 year maximum in the top comment of this subthread.
kelnos 12y ago
Emotion is a complex thing, but if I were killed, I would certainly not want my loved ones mourning me for the rest of their lives. Move on, be happy. Regardless, the length of the prison sentence has no bearing on the mourning process.

nfoz 12y ago

Why, what would be your concern? Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/Uni... Murder rate for 2011 (Homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants): Germany: 0.86. USA: 5. That's nearly 6x as many murders per capita in the USA than Germany.

mineshaftgap 12y ago
Germans don't cross an empty street against the light and register with the police every time they move. I am not sure you can really compare the two.
- sgift 12y ago
  So, now I'm not a german anymore because I did cross a street against the light? (multiple times even) You're cruel :(
- song 12y ago
  I've spent quite some time in Germany and well I'm sorry to shatter your bubble but Germans do cross an empty street when the light is red. I've even seen people party in nightclubs and go outside to drink vodka or other drinks they bought in their car. And to further tear your argument, Spanish who have a "reputation" in Europe of crossing by red light and of having a bit more of loose attitude towards rules have a similar murder rate. 0.9 for Spain, 0.86 for Germany. I think the factors are external rather than internal. I don't know exactly what causes it though. The higher availability of guns in the US? The fact that the prison system in the US does not reform but punishes instead and convert first time convicts into hardened criminals? Other factors? I don't know but having lived in all three countries, I don't see that many differences in term of people's character that could explain the difference in murder rate.
  - onnoonno 12y ago
    > I don't know but having lived in all three countries, I don't see that many differences in term of people's character that could explain the difference in murder rate. No offense, but could this be selection bias? You have certainly only talked to a selected subset of people.. I think if 80% of the U.S. population would want a thorough reform of their justice system, it would happen. What exactly would an 'external' factor be for you?
    - song 12y ago
      Sure, it might be a selection bias, I was a student in all three cases and, by definition, students tend to be more educated. What I mean by external factor is the laws, the way the criminal system is setup, the lack or not of reinsertion opportunities for ex-cons and so on. You might say that in a democracy all of this is decided by the people, but there's a certain inertia that sets in that mean that people have very little influence in changing things and there are powerful forces that try to keep things as they are (for profit or different reasons).
      - onnoonno 12y ago
        Ah ok, I see. Well for a while I was looking at those factors to be external rather than internal as well - but I am more and more convinced that people get exactly the government they want, all the time.
  - Zak 12y ago
    The higher availability of guns in the US? The fact that the prison system in the US does not reform but punishes instead and convert first time convicts into hardened criminals? Other factors? Probably not the guns. Germany has about a third the rate of gun ownership the US does and its rates of serious violent crimes, both with and without guns are much less than a third those of the US. All of Scandinavia, Switzerland and Iceland have high rates of gun ownership and even lower crime rates. The prisons might have an impact, but I think at least as important is the post-release re-integration in to society. The parole system in the US is set up more to ensure that released prisoners can be easily subjected to further punishment if need be than to help them lead productive lives. An important factor is that those countries have a distinct culture and sense of community. People are more willing to hurt others they don't see as part of a group to which they are loyal. I actually see the lack of cultural homogeneity as a strength for the US overall, but I think it tends to lead to more crime. Another important factor is the relative lack of poverty in northwestern Europe. Someone who sees none of their prospective ways to earn a living legally leading to a comfortable lifestyle is more likely to consider illegal and antisocial approaches.

joshstrange 12y ago

FYI "because I want the person to suffer" is not a valid reason to lock someone up. We lock people up as a punishment just like your parents may have sent you to your room when you were acting up. We do it under the thinking of they won't do it again once they've paid their debt but that thinking is flawed on SO many level. Among them are: 1. Prison does NOT reform people in fact it pushes many deeper into a life of crime 2. Even after they have "paid their debt to society" they are still ostracised and disadvantaged 3. Unlike your parents there is no mercy/compassion in our judicial system AFAICT or if there is it's only directed at upper-class white males....

mineshaftgap 12y ago
People are also locked up to keep them away from ordinary citizens.
yodsanklai 12y ago
> FYI "because I want the person to suffer" is not a valid reason to lock someone up. I don't know if it's valid, but it certainly a reason why we lock people up. "An eye for an eye" is a universal principle and I assume victims expect some type of revenge. Maybe that's something we should refrain from in a perfect world, but I don't think we're there yet!
- joshstrange 12y ago
  "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" I think that concept is fundamentally flawed... I don't think it's sustainable or really fair.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  And how can we murder the Aurora shooter 17 times?
- JanezStupar 12y ago
  Don't know about you, but to me punishment is about first and foremost protecting the society from persons actions and about offering a chance for redemption/improvement. Vengeance is never a good agenda. Eye for an eye is an universal sadist principle.

mikeash 12y ago

The way you compare them, you make it sound like increasing the prison term will decrease the time the loved ones spend mourning.

atlantic 12y ago

Which deceased is that? This person was convicted of robbery, not murder.

maxerickson 12y ago
The hypothetical deceased German that would lead to the hypothetical 15 year maximum in the top comment of this subthread.

kelnos 12y ago

Emotion is a complex thing, but if I were killed, I would certainly not want my loved ones mourning me for the rest of their lives. Move on, be happy. Regardless, the length of the prison sentence has no bearing on the mourning process.