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So how do you fix it? I don't really see another way to rank large amounts of stories other than points. Sure, you can try to detect cheating, but you want a mi

by Joona 12y ago

So how do you fix it? I don't really see another way to rank large amounts of stories other than points. Sure, you can try to detect cheating, but you want a minimal amount of false positives, too. Edit: missing word

chkuendig 12y ago
One Idea would be to increase the "gravity" effect on the frontpage: If it doesn't get the expected influx of votes in a short timeframe, drop it. Obviously still cheatable but would require more (i.e. easier to detect) votes.
- verroq 12y ago
  What a great way of penalising posts that take a long time to read.
  - ledzep2 12y ago
    So maybe we should propose a new field which is the approx. time to finish reading when submitting a story.
    - kardos 12y ago
      And so the cheaters would pick longer durations.
      - ledzep2 12y ago
        This can be easily identified since other readers won't agree on this field.
ledzep2 12y ago
It's a game. Cheating the system without being caught is win in YC's universe. But now, this is hunters' turn to take one step ahead of the game!
hawski 12y ago
Few options: make system more complex, add randomization, increase moderation effort or make it less open. I am fan of adding randomization. It was previously proposed: show few random new items on a front page in random places, maybe with a little threshold. I was thinking about community page destined to fork. After community reaches certain threshold (size, activity) there is automatic fork and 2nd generation community is created. Some algorithm adds accounts for certain users and blocks some other users from account creation. It's just a pipe dream...
- Mahn 12y ago
  I think the easiest option would be more transparency. If HN had a system in by which its users could see how things get to the front page (e.g. with graphs and data), rather than simply having to trust a magic points and time algorithm, it would become immediately obvious to the community at large if/when someone were cheating and we'd be able to react accordingly, over time learning how to identify and punish these.
- dang 12y ago
  > I am fan of adding randomization. It was previously proposed: show few random new items on a front page in random places, maybe with a little threshold. We tested this idea (though we didn't roll it out for everyone) and the results were terrible. The median story is too low in quality for randomness to add value here. You just end up planting junk on the front page and annoying people. From that we concluded that there needs to be additional filtering, be it by algorithms, humans, or a combination.

by Joona 12y ago

chkuendig 12y ago

One Idea would be to increase the "gravity" effect on the frontpage: If it doesn't get the expected influx of votes in a short timeframe, drop it. Obviously still cheatable but would require more (i.e. easier to detect) votes.

verroq 12y ago
What a great way of penalising posts that take a long time to read.
- ledzep2 12y ago
  So maybe we should propose a new field which is the approx. time to finish reading when submitting a story.
  - kardos 12y ago
    And so the cheaters would pick longer durations.
    - ledzep2 12y ago
      This can be easily identified since other readers won't agree on this field.

ledzep2 12y ago

It's a game. Cheating the system without being caught is win in YC's universe. But now, this is hunters' turn to take one step ahead of the game!

hawski 12y ago

Few options: make system more complex, add randomization, increase moderation effort or make it less open. I am fan of adding randomization. It was previously proposed: show few random new items on a front page in random places, maybe with a little threshold. I was thinking about community page destined to fork. After community reaches certain threshold (size, activity) there is automatic fork and 2nd generation community is created. Some algorithm adds accounts for certain users and blocks some other users from account creation. It's just a pipe dream...

Mahn 12y ago
I think the easiest option would be more transparency. If HN had a system in by which its users could see how things get to the front page (e.g. with graphs and data), rather than simply having to trust a magic points and time algorithm, it would become immediately obvious to the community at large if/when someone were cheating and we'd be able to react accordingly, over time learning how to identify and punish these.
dang 12y ago
> I am fan of adding randomization. It was previously proposed: show few random new items on a front page in random places, maybe with a little threshold. We tested this idea (though we didn't roll it out for everyone) and the results were terrible. The median story is too low in quality for randomness to add value here. You just end up planting junk on the front page and annoying people. From that we concluded that there needs to be additional filtering, be it by algorithms, humans, or a combination.