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I don't think it was a myth based on anime or otherwise. Japan did seem genuinely high-tech when I first arrived here 20 years ago. Talking elevators and high-t

I don't think it was a myth based on anime or otherwise. Japan did seem genuinely high-tech when I first arrived here 20 years ago. Talking elevators and high-tech toilets. Consumer electronics that were at least two years ahead of what was available in the US. Car navigation and mobile phones were way more advanced than in other countries at the time.

k_sze 12y ago
Of course, back then Japan had or adopted cooler tech than most of the rest of the world. The problem is that, at the same time, a high-tech, futuristic vision emerged and it was much grander than what was happening. That vision is the "myth" I am talking about. And then people were fixated on that vision while the means to achieve that vision was nowhere in sight. After a while, people give up and do these other things to pretend the future is here.
- mikesickler 12y ago
  I don't know what vision you're referring to. Who created it? The reality is that Japan was then, and is now, pretty high-tech.
  - k_sze 12y ago
    I can't say who created it, but such vision certainly emerged (which is why I changed the wording in my original comment shortly before you replied). Giant, versatile robotic war machines that can fight on land, in the air, and in space; space colonies; space shuttle for the masses. (Gundam, Patlabor, Macross) Cyborg prosthetics; instant detoxification from alcohol. (Ghost in the Shell) None of these have been achieved. Meanwhile, we got ASIMO, which fell down a flight of stairs during demo.
    - mikesickler 12y ago
      I hate to be the one to break it to you, but anime is not real.
      - k_sze 12y ago
        That's why it's called a vision. A vision is something that is not real yet, that people believe or hope will come true.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    > is now, pretty high-tech Oh yeah ? where are the robots then ? It's so high tech that: - they actually waited YEARS to embrace smartphones when they came out. - All electronics makers in Japan have lost to Chinese and Korean rivals - Most of the "innovations" in Japan never make it to the western market because they are so much made for Japanese only (the Galapagos problem). - In about every field of Research now the US is ahead, and by far. Being high tech is not about making dots of new stuff here and there among an ocean of non-innovation, but actually integrating what you improve into everything else. Japan has been particularly bad at that.
- deciplex 12y ago
  > Of course, back then Japan had or adopted cooler tech than most of the rest of the world. Key word being 'adopted'. I guess there was a time when Japanese culture enthusiastically adopted technology and culture from outside of Japan, but I don't see this too much anymore. Remember that Apple had to go to great lengths to even get the iPhone on sale here - up to that point, while mobile phones here might have been great in the 90s or whatever, innovation had basically stagnated in that space. There is the fax thing in the article. I can tell you that in the financial sector here there are a great number of customs and practices that were abandoned by the rest of the world twenty or thirty years ago in the name of efficiency. Remember that MiniDisc remained a big deal here well into the 2000s - even ten years ago few people in Japan knew what an MP3 player was (again, until Apple basically forced the iPod onto the market here). So new tech can be adopted here, but you really have to go to unreasonably great lengths to prove it out before shops and distributors will work with you - and the price of being wrong is really high. And you can multiply this by a factor of ten if your company is not Japanese. Japanese remind me of the Amish in this respect, actually - of course, it has nothing to do with religion. I think it is a side effect of Japanese exceptionalism and various Nihonjinron bullshit that continues to be a big deal for the Japanese. In fact, I suspect this is getting worse, although it's certainly possible I just notice it more now. Even if a thing is successful everywhere else, even if everyone finds a thing very useful (or, in the case of fax per the article, hopelessly outdated), the Japanese will reject it without consideration, or cling to it beyond the point of reason, with no justification aside from, well, they're Japanese so obviously things that work everywhere else can't work here, and vice versa. It is an exceptionally stupid meme and it's holding back the entire society. And while I could definitely be wrong (and hope I'm wrong), it seems to be getting worse.
free2rhyme214 12y ago
The great question is: why did this stop?
- mikesickler 12y ago
  Two trends come to mind: 1) Japan has been mired in an economic malaise for nealy 20 years, and 2) much of tech innovation has migrated from hardware to software, and Japan is more of a hardware innovator.
  - z92 12y ago
    much of tech innovation has migrated from hardware to software, and Japan is more of a hardware innovator. This one. East Asia badly lacks in software.
- crdb 12y ago
  The individualist view of history would argue that the individuals behind the innovations aren't with us anymore, or based in Japan. For example, some argue that Sony has not seen any Walkman-scale consumer innovations/global successes since Morita. I read somewhere, many years ago, that as many as 11 could be directly traced to him. The macro economist (e.g. see "The Volatility Machine" by Pettis) would argue that there was fabulous amounts of FDI right until 1991, and one side effect of cheap capital is a lot more R&D into "useless" and "risky" things some of which become groundbreaking consumer innovation. As the FDI dried up so did the keiretsus' spare cash for risky ventures, or it went elsewhere (here in Singapore we see a lot of Japanese VCs like Gree). I do wonder if it has stopped outside consumer electronics (which are the most visible). In my now 5 trips in the last 2 years alone, I've been consistently impressed by the quality of the engineering (particularly civil and systems) all over the country.

k_sze 12y ago

Of course, back then Japan had or adopted cooler tech than most of the rest of the world. The problem is that, at the same time, a high-tech, futuristic vision emerged and it was much grander than what was happening. That vision is the "myth" I am talking about. And then people were fixated on that vision while the means to achieve that vision was nowhere in sight. After a while, people give up and do these other things to pretend the future is here.

mikesickler 12y ago
I don't know what vision you're referring to. Who created it? The reality is that Japan was then, and is now, pretty high-tech.
- k_sze 12y ago
  I can't say who created it, but such vision certainly emerged (which is why I changed the wording in my original comment shortly before you replied). Giant, versatile robotic war machines that can fight on land, in the air, and in space; space colonies; space shuttle for the masses. (Gundam, Patlabor, Macross) Cyborg prosthetics; instant detoxification from alcohol. (Ghost in the Shell) None of these have been achieved. Meanwhile, we got ASIMO, which fell down a flight of stairs during demo.
  - mikesickler 12y ago
    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but anime is not real.
    - k_sze 12y ago
      That's why it's called a vision. A vision is something that is not real yet, that people believe or hope will come true.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > is now, pretty high-tech Oh yeah ? where are the robots then ? It's so high tech that: - they actually waited YEARS to embrace smartphones when they came out. - All electronics makers in Japan have lost to Chinese and Korean rivals - Most of the "innovations" in Japan never make it to the western market because they are so much made for Japanese only (the Galapagos problem). - In about every field of Research now the US is ahead, and by far. Being high tech is not about making dots of new stuff here and there among an ocean of non-innovation, but actually integrating what you improve into everything else. Japan has been particularly bad at that.
deciplex 12y ago
> Of course, back then Japan had or adopted cooler tech than most of the rest of the world. Key word being 'adopted'. I guess there was a time when Japanese culture enthusiastically adopted technology and culture from outside of Japan, but I don't see this too much anymore. Remember that Apple had to go to great lengths to even get the iPhone on sale here - up to that point, while mobile phones here might have been great in the 90s or whatever, innovation had basically stagnated in that space. There is the fax thing in the article. I can tell you that in the financial sector here there are a great number of customs and practices that were abandoned by the rest of the world twenty or thirty years ago in the name of efficiency. Remember that MiniDisc remained a big deal here well into the 2000s - even ten years ago few people in Japan knew what an MP3 player was (again, until Apple basically forced the iPod onto the market here). So new tech can be adopted here, but you really have to go to unreasonably great lengths to prove it out before shops and distributors will work with you - and the price of being wrong is really high. And you can multiply this by a factor of ten if your company is not Japanese. Japanese remind me of the Amish in this respect, actually - of course, it has nothing to do with religion. I think it is a side effect of Japanese exceptionalism and various Nihonjinron bullshit that continues to be a big deal for the Japanese. In fact, I suspect this is getting worse, although it's certainly possible I just notice it more now. Even if a thing is successful everywhere else, even if everyone finds a thing very useful (or, in the case of fax per the article, hopelessly outdated), the Japanese will reject it without consideration, or cling to it beyond the point of reason, with no justification aside from, well, they're Japanese so obviously things that work everywhere else can't work here, and vice versa. It is an exceptionally stupid meme and it's holding back the entire society. And while I could definitely be wrong (and hope I'm wrong), it seems to be getting worse.

free2rhyme214 12y ago

The great question is: why did this stop?

mikesickler 12y ago
Two trends come to mind: 1) Japan has been mired in an economic malaise for nealy 20 years, and 2) much of tech innovation has migrated from hardware to software, and Japan is more of a hardware innovator.
- z92 12y ago
  much of tech innovation has migrated from hardware to software, and Japan is more of a hardware innovator. This one. East Asia badly lacks in software.
crdb 12y ago
The individualist view of history would argue that the individuals behind the innovations aren't with us anymore, or based in Japan. For example, some argue that Sony has not seen any Walkman-scale consumer innovations/global successes since Morita. I read somewhere, many years ago, that as many as 11 could be directly traced to him. The macro economist (e.g. see "The Volatility Machine" by Pettis) would argue that there was fabulous amounts of FDI right until 1991, and one side effect of cheap capital is a lot more R&D into "useless" and "risky" things some of which become groundbreaking consumer innovation. As the FDI dried up so did the keiretsus' spare cash for risky ventures, or it went elsewhere (here in Singapore we see a lot of Japanese VCs like Gree). I do wonder if it has stopped outside consumer electronics (which are the most visible). In my now 5 trips in the last 2 years alone, I've been consistently impressed by the quality of the engineering (particularly civil and systems) all over the country.