3 ms·

I don't really get the idea of "sustainable living" as in, I'm not supposed to eat beef or fly on a plane, because there are not enough of those things to supp

by pitt1980 12y ago

I don't really get the idea of "sustainable living" as in, I'm not supposed to eat beef or fly on a plane, because there are not enough of those things to support everyone on the planet doing at US rates Like, I get that if everyone started eating beef that would take an oversized share of arriable land, but wouldn't that then be reflected in the price for beef? I like hamburger, but if I had to pay fois gras prices for it because everyone in China liked it too, driving up the price for beef, I'd probably switch to eating something different if we're still at cheap beef prices, seems like a pretty strong signal to me, that current beef consumption is in fact sustainable

VLM 12y ago
The primary resource limitation for food isn't mere land (we have plenty) or water (plenty as long as you don't live in a temporarily reclaimed desert) but petrochemicals. Your food comes out of an oil well. When the well empties, you stop getting food. Pretty much that simple.
- pitt1980 12y ago
  isn't your sustainability status with regards to that conveyed by price information as well though? if eating beef or flying in planes are using up too many petrochemicals, shouldn't the price go up, and price you out of using them?
  - ZenoArrow 12y ago
    "isn't your sustainability status with regards to that conveyed by price information as well though?" No, the sustainability of production isn't included in the price, and that's part of the problem. There have been suggestions on how to fix this (e.g. carbon tax) but none have come to pass (not on a wide scale anyway).
    - pitt1980 12y ago
      are you talking about pollution externalities? or production sustainability in terms of "we might run out"? because I'm pretty sure information regarding the latter is priced in
      - jdietrich 12y ago
        Both. Pollution externalities are basically unpriced, and oil production is massively subsidised. Governments suffer from hyperbolic discounting - they would rather keep gas prices low for the next election than deal with the expensive and difficult long-term process of transitioning to more sustainable sources of energy.
        pitt1980 12y ago
        that's an interesting take "hyperbolic discounting" is an interesting phrase, I'm curious about to what degree that has been studied as an economic/political phenomenon seems like its something that govenments clearly do, but its not obvious how long they can do it also all economic actors discount the future at varying rates
        ZenoArrow 12y ago
        "also all economic actors discount the future at varying rates" Which future are you referring to, the near future? Economic actors generally care about the profit which is closest to them, any consideration of the future beyond that is considerably weaker. Also, consideration of economic actors is an abstract idea, what is being discussed is the reality of what exists today. What would you propose for ensuring the overall costs were more completely reflected in the final price?
        pitt1980 12y ago
        well, I mean some actors are more future oriented than others, but everyone prefers a dollar today to a dollar a year from now, politicians probably have a weaker future orientation than most, but they're not unique in discounting the future I don't philosphically have any problem with carbon taxes, or some legal liability scheme to capture overall costs
Lagged2Death 12y ago
You're taking it on faith that the price of beef in the store currently reflects the actual costs of producing that beef. And that it would continue to do so if the beef industry became even larger and more powerful. But it isn't true, current "cheap beef prices" (they are actually up a lot just now [1]) are a reflection, in part, of the public funds and public property use that are routinely donated to agribusiness. You can't tell what the cost of beef is by looking at the pricetag, and that's true about a lot of real-world products and services. You can't rely on the market to give you a signal in such cases. And you can't tell which cases are which without digging in to every one. I don't mean to pick on you, exactly, but your attitude is one I see online frequently. "I took Econ 101 and therefore I can tell which global industrial supply chains are or are not sustainable just by looking at price-tags in the grocery store." When even real economists get things wrong all the time. [1] http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=beef&months=240 http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=beef&months...
- pitt1980 12y ago
  how long can a government distort prices? even a distorted price gives information, no?

VLM 12y ago

The primary resource limitation for food isn't mere land (we have plenty) or water (plenty as long as you don't live in a temporarily reclaimed desert) but petrochemicals. Your food comes out of an oil well. When the well empties, you stop getting food. Pretty much that simple.

pitt1980 12y ago
isn't your sustainability status with regards to that conveyed by price information as well though? if eating beef or flying in planes are using up too many petrochemicals, shouldn't the price go up, and price you out of using them?
- ZenoArrow 12y ago
  "isn't your sustainability status with regards to that conveyed by price information as well though?" No, the sustainability of production isn't included in the price, and that's part of the problem. There have been suggestions on how to fix this (e.g. carbon tax) but none have come to pass (not on a wide scale anyway).
  - pitt1980 12y ago
    are you talking about pollution externalities? or production sustainability in terms of "we might run out"? because I'm pretty sure information regarding the latter is priced in
    - jdietrich 12y ago
      Both. Pollution externalities are basically unpriced, and oil production is massively subsidised. Governments suffer from hyperbolic discounting - they would rather keep gas prices low for the next election than deal with the expensive and difficult long-term process of transitioning to more sustainable sources of energy.
      - pitt1980 12y ago
        that's an interesting take "hyperbolic discounting" is an interesting phrase, I'm curious about to what degree that has been studied as an economic/political phenomenon seems like its something that govenments clearly do, but its not obvious how long they can do it also all economic actors discount the future at varying rates
        ZenoArrow 12y ago
        "also all economic actors discount the future at varying rates" Which future are you referring to, the near future? Economic actors generally care about the profit which is closest to them, any consideration of the future beyond that is considerably weaker. Also, consideration of economic actors is an abstract idea, what is being discussed is the reality of what exists today. What would you propose for ensuring the overall costs were more completely reflected in the final price?
        pitt1980 12y ago
        well, I mean some actors are more future oriented than others, but everyone prefers a dollar today to a dollar a year from now, politicians probably have a weaker future orientation than most, but they're not unique in discounting the future I don't philosphically have any problem with carbon taxes, or some legal liability scheme to capture overall costs

Lagged2Death 12y ago

You're taking it on faith that the price of beef in the store currently reflects the actual costs of producing that beef. And that it would continue to do so if the beef industry became even larger and more powerful. But it isn't true, current "cheap beef prices" (they are actually up a lot just now [1]) are a reflection, in part, of the public funds and public property use that are routinely donated to agribusiness. You can't tell what the cost of beef is by looking at the pricetag, and that's true about a lot of real-world products and services. You can't rely on the market to give you a signal in such cases. And you can't tell which cases are which without digging in to every one. I don't mean to pick on you, exactly, but your attitude is one I see online frequently. "I took Econ 101 and therefore I can tell which global industrial supply chains are or are not sustainable just by looking at price-tags in the grocery store." When even real economists get things wrong all the time. [1] http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=beef&months=240 http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=beef&months...

pitt1980 12y ago
how long can a government distort prices? even a distorted price gives information, no?