4 ms·

Latency is really not that big of a deal, as there are already protocols that deal with it quite successfully. And remember that slow Internet is better than no

Latency is really not that big of a deal, as there are already protocols that deal with it quite successfully. And remember that slow Internet is better than no Internet.

ColinWright 12y ago
Latency is a big deal for some things. Although it's from 1996, the principle given here are still applicable: http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html[0] Discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7826768[1] And while it's true that slow internet is better than no internet, people still don't grasp that latency is a big deal - it really is. I see that in this case the latency issue is being dealt with by using LEO satellites and doing clever things with hand-overs, and that's good. The question is whether it's enough, although given that it's Musk at the helm, it probably is. Edited to add real links: [0] http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7826768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7826768
- mariusz79 12y ago
  of course for some things latency is important, but not for all of them.
  - ColinWright 12y ago
    No not for all, but perhaps for more than you think. Even simple web browsing. Are you aware of just how many resources a typical modern web page loads, and how many requests it makes? As an experiment you could try putting a half second delay on every request and see what happens to your browsing experience. It's horrible, which is why I always worry about latency. It looks like Musk is avoiding it, but it needs considering. Part of the problem is that web designers are largely protected from the effects of slow networks and bad latency, they design as if these things don't matter. And usually they don't, but it's becoming more important because they don't realise. I remember computing when the speed of light didn't matter. Sometimes I miss those days. Edit: Changed "Someone's" to "Sometimes" - auto-corrupt struck again.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      That's an artefact of us not having to deal with that much latency, though, and is being fixed with the ability for the server to pre-emptively push resources you will need. (as a side note, my first "web browsing" experience had a typical round-trip measured in hours; I requested my pages with CERN's email-to-web gateway, but I got my e-mail via UUCP exchange to a local BBS which again did their UUCP exchange to an internet connected host every 4-6 hours, so if I timed my exchanges right, I might upload my request right before an exchange, and get my page back right after the second exchange 4-6 hours later - of course it sucked, but it was still massively better than no web access, and at the time I had never experienced "live" internet access)
    - mariusz79 12y ago
      I think that people, especially web developers, tend to forget that the Web is not the Internet.
      - ColinWright 12y ago
        It sounds like you think I'm a web developer who thinks the web is everything. I'm not, and I don't. I work on safety critical systems doing hard-real-time and soft-real-time image analysis, object tracking, data correlation, and tactical overlays for widely distributed systems consisting of a mix of servers, embedded, and customer facing systems. More than one customer has come to me and said - "This is easy - just send it via satellite!" I have dealt with and feel I have some understanding of the issues here. Earlier you said[0]: "Latency is really not that big of a deal, as there are already protocols that deal with it quite successfully." I'd be interested to know of which protocols you speak, and your experience in working with them. I'd be very happy to benefit from your experiences in this regard, as there's always a chance that you know things I don't. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9327656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9327656
    - darkmighty 12y ago
      Don't make blanket statements without looking at the actual numbers first. The satellites will be in LEO. An added 5ms (or say 50ms with slack for demodulation, processing, etc) RTT is totally insignificant for their target market.
- aptwebapps 12y ago
  Well, I don't know what latency the handoffs will cause, but 750 miles straight up is 4ms each way. Considering they'll often be at an angle, you might get roundtrip latencies of 10 to 15 ms. That's on top of anything else, but it's pretty good for most purposes.

Latency is really not that big of a deal, as there are already protocols that deal with it quite successfully. And remember that slow Internet is better than no Internet.

ColinWright 12y ago

Latency is a big deal for some things. Although it's from 1996, the principle given here are still applicable: http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html[0] Discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7826768[1] And while it's true that slow internet is better than no internet, people still don't grasp that latency is a big deal - it really is. I see that in this case the latency issue is being dealt with by using LEO satellites and doing clever things with hand-overs, and that's good. The question is whether it's enough, although given that it's Musk at the helm, it probably is. Edited to add real links: [0] http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7826768 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7826768

mariusz79 12y ago
of course for some things latency is important, but not for all of them.
- ColinWright 12y ago
  No not for all, but perhaps for more than you think. Even simple web browsing. Are you aware of just how many resources a typical modern web page loads, and how many requests it makes? As an experiment you could try putting a half second delay on every request and see what happens to your browsing experience. It's horrible, which is why I always worry about latency. It looks like Musk is avoiding it, but it needs considering. Part of the problem is that web designers are largely protected from the effects of slow networks and bad latency, they design as if these things don't matter. And usually they don't, but it's becoming more important because they don't realise. I remember computing when the speed of light didn't matter. Sometimes I miss those days. Edit: Changed "Someone's" to "Sometimes" - auto-corrupt struck again.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    That's an artefact of us not having to deal with that much latency, though, and is being fixed with the ability for the server to pre-emptively push resources you will need. (as a side note, my first "web browsing" experience had a typical round-trip measured in hours; I requested my pages with CERN's email-to-web gateway, but I got my e-mail via UUCP exchange to a local BBS which again did their UUCP exchange to an internet connected host every 4-6 hours, so if I timed my exchanges right, I might upload my request right before an exchange, and get my page back right after the second exchange 4-6 hours later - of course it sucked, but it was still massively better than no web access, and at the time I had never experienced "live" internet access)
  - mariusz79 12y ago
    I think that people, especially web developers, tend to forget that the Web is not the Internet.
    - ColinWright 12y ago
      It sounds like you think I'm a web developer who thinks the web is everything. I'm not, and I don't. I work on safety critical systems doing hard-real-time and soft-real-time image analysis, object tracking, data correlation, and tactical overlays for widely distributed systems consisting of a mix of servers, embedded, and customer facing systems. More than one customer has come to me and said - "This is easy - just send it via satellite!" I have dealt with and feel I have some understanding of the issues here. Earlier you said[0]: "Latency is really not that big of a deal, as there are already protocols that deal with it quite successfully." I'd be interested to know of which protocols you speak, and your experience in working with them. I'd be very happy to benefit from your experiences in this regard, as there's always a chance that you know things I don't. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9327656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9327656
  - darkmighty 12y ago
    Don't make blanket statements without looking at the actual numbers first. The satellites will be in LEO. An added 5ms (or say 50ms with slack for demodulation, processing, etc) RTT is totally insignificant for their target market.
aptwebapps 12y ago
Well, I don't know what latency the handoffs will cause, but 750 miles straight up is 4ms each way. Considering they'll often be at an angle, you might get roundtrip latencies of 10 to 15 ms. That's on top of anything else, but it's pretty good for most purposes.