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I'm not sure if you're trying to play language games to be obtuse for some reason, but the right to be involved in one's government absolutely is a human right.

by Frondo 12y ago

I'm not sure if you're trying to play language games to be obtuse for some reason, but the right to be involved in one's government absolutely is a human right. To say "the right to vote in a democracy is not a human right" is arguably not false, just going on narrow definitions of "vote" and "democracy," but the right to be involved in one's government? Oh yes. Just because it is denied so many does not mean it is not still a human right.

vacri 12y ago
... you're saying that people who aren't citizens of France should be able to vote in French governmental elections? You're opposing "only citizens of that democracy can vote in it"? Why is it a human right for a Russian or a Fijian or an Argentinian to vote in the French elections? I can't make out what your problem with my comment is.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Wait, so you're saying... you don't disagree that all people have a human right to participate in their own government? That you only don't think all people should have the right to participate in all governments?
  - vacri 12y ago
    Eh? I didn't say not in their own government. I said that people who are not French citizens can't vote in the French elections, and it's not a violation of human rights that they can't. I didn't say that Russians shouldn't be able to vote in Russia. Stop strawmanning my words. Edit: to be clearer - being able to get involved in your own government is a human right. Being able to vote in the French elections is a civil right, reserved to French citizens. All cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.
    - Frondo 12y ago
      The thing is, I can't even understand where the claim that "being able to participate in other people's government is a human right" is coming from. I think we're saying the same thing, but somehow we got our signals mixed up.
- hluska 12y ago
  The problem is that you are being needlessly pedantic. Please stop...
  - vacri 12y ago
    Why is it pedantic to be confused by a naysayer who is twisting your words to say something you did not say or mean, and try to reclarify it? If someone accuses you of possibly playing language games to be obtuse, why is trying to clarify the issue considered pedantic? Edit: it's also a bit weird to accuse someone of pedantry when the topic at hand is the subtlety of difference between terms ("what defines a human right as opposed to other rights").

by Frondo 12y ago

vacri 12y ago

... you're saying that people who aren't citizens of France should be able to vote in French governmental elections? You're opposing "only citizens of that democracy can vote in it"? Why is it a human right for a Russian or a Fijian or an Argentinian to vote in the French elections? I can't make out what your problem with my comment is.

Frondo 12y ago
Wait, so you're saying... you don't disagree that all people have a human right to participate in their own government? That you only don't think all people should have the right to participate in all governments?
- vacri 12y ago
  Eh? I didn't say not in their own government. I said that people who are not French citizens can't vote in the French elections, and it's not a violation of human rights that they can't. I didn't say that Russians shouldn't be able to vote in Russia. Stop strawmanning my words. Edit: to be clearer - being able to get involved in your own government is a human right. Being able to vote in the French elections is a civil right, reserved to French citizens. All cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.
  - Frondo 12y ago
    The thing is, I can't even understand where the claim that "being able to participate in other people's government is a human right" is coming from. I think we're saying the same thing, but somehow we got our signals mixed up.
hluska 12y ago
The problem is that you are being needlessly pedantic. Please stop...
- vacri 12y ago
  Why is it pedantic to be confused by a naysayer who is twisting your words to say something you did not say or mean, and try to reclarify it? If someone accuses you of possibly playing language games to be obtuse, why is trying to clarify the issue considered pedantic? Edit: it's also a bit weird to accuse someone of pedantry when the topic at hand is the subtlety of difference between terms ("what defines a human right as opposed to other rights").