7 ms·

GNU Hurd

97 points by jdkanani 12y ago

xkcd2 12y ago
http://xkcd.com/1508/ http://xkcd.com/1508/
- kjs3 12y ago
  The idea that some elderly neckbeard would, decades after the fall, still be painfully hacking away at Hurd amid the decaying remnants of a dead civilization is a vision easy to see.
drivingmenuts 12y ago
GNU Hurd, the Daikatana edition.
- twic 12y ago
  I have it on good authority that the Hurd is being used as the engine in Half-Life 3.
  - tomjen3 12y ago
    Kind of sad, I remember when Hurd was used in the same sentence as Duke Nukem Forever. Then they finished Duke..
    - ta0967 12y ago
      Au contraire, it's a reason to lighten up a little: we might live long enough to see HL3 and Hurd done!
agumonkey 12y ago
Just in case, Samuel Thibault does talks about Hurd somehow regularly : https://www.google.com/search?q=samuel+thibault+hurd https://www.google.com/search?q=samuel+thibault+hurd
talles 12y ago
Is there any specific reason why it's on the front page today? P.S.: Just checked xkcd, I guess it's because it have been mentioned in today's comic...
- Jean-Philipe 12y ago
  It's one of the things that pop up on HN every now and then, even with the same link submitted by somebody else...
- cydonian_monk 12y ago
  Weird. When I read xkcd this morning it didn't mention anything at all about GNU/Hurd. Apparently my RSS reader decided to cut off the far right side of that image, so it just ended "In Fire." Checked the site and the whole image is there. The alt-text makes a bit more sense now. Is it Friday yet?
- smoyer 12y ago
  2042 appears to be an important year in history!
FreakyT 12y ago
What is the deal with GNU Hurd? I know it's become a bit of a punchline for software being late, but does anyone use it for anything? This site says you can get a build of Debian based on Hurd instead of Linux -- does anyone use this? Is it purely an academic curiosity at this point?
- TillE 12y ago
  Multiple attempts at replacing the Mach microkernel have fizzled out, meaning it's not even academically interesting. If Coyotos or Viengoos or L4.Sec had ever worked out, there would be something genuinely useful that people might want to work on.
  - alexvoda 12y ago
    I wasn't aware there were attempts to replace Mach with something else inside Hurd. I am really interested if you can share a bit of history about this; Especially if it's related to L4 and capability-computing. Same as Symmetry below, I would be interested in any L4 and seL4 based general purpose operating system project.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      Very brief history is here: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/history/port_to_another_microkernel.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/history/port_to_another_mi...
    - justincormack 12y ago
      Genode works on a variety of L4-based kernels, probably what you want to look at.
- feedjoelpie 12y ago
  It's more like a cultural curiosity. It's an attempt to get a full GNU system on top of a microkernel. Except they've never gotten a particularly complete system working with any acceptable level of performance on any of many microkernels attempted. It was already a punchline when I started trying to play with it in college circa 2004 or so.
justincormack 12y ago
If you are interested in trying a microkernel OS, Genode (genode.org) is pretty interesting, with a secure display architecture, ability to run Linux in a VM etc.
Symmetry 12y ago
I wonder if someone is working on building an OS around seL4 now that it's open sourced? Obviously it would have to be designed differently than HURD is, but it sounds like it would be a nifty project.
- Symmetry 12y ago
  A randomish additional thought. It seems like Arrakis[1]-like system is much more natural since then your database and your filesystem are both user level processes who have been given access to different hard drives. And your webserver and normal networking process can be different processes that have been given access to different channels on your ethernet connection. Of course I'm just a robotics engineer, this is all woolly speculation. [1]https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/presentation/peter https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/...
bshimmin 12y ago
I like how they're almost as fanatical about using the definite article as Apple are the opposite ("The GNU Hurd" vs. just "iPhone"): https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/what_is_the_gnu_hurd/gramatically_speaking.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/what_is_the_gnu_hurd/...
jheriko 12y ago
its still alive?!?!?!
Cyberis 12y ago
Oops! you misspelled the name. It begins with a 'T', not an 'H' :-)
mehrzad 12y ago
In any case, RMS is absolutely right about people not giving GNU enough credit in naming or in general.
- amyjess 12y ago
  GNU is becoming progressively less and less important. The "killer apps" for Linux have never been GNU. Apache httpd and XFree86/Xorg are by far and above the most popular applications on Linux, and they aren't GNU projects. Graphically, GNU is at its nadir of influence. Freedesktop.org controls most cross-desktop standards, libraries, and services. GNU's own desktop environment GNOME is no longer nearly as popular as it used to be thanks to GNOME 3 being actively hostile to desktop users (and GNOME has always been part of GNU on paper only -- it's effectively a Red Hat project). On the platform side, the init system has never been GNU. While the init system has always been a minor part of the OS, this is changing thanks to systemd (also a product of freedesktop.org) getting its hooks into everything on several levels. Actually, I'd go as far as to say that freedesktop.org has far more influence on the userland than GNU does right now.
  - kjs3 12y ago
    GCC and it's ecosystem is a killer app. Without it, you likely wouldn't have had the others[1], including Linux itself. [1] X existed in the before time, but it was distinctly different than XFree86.
  - dec0dedab0de 12y ago
    GNU's own desktop environment GNOME I am pretty sure GNOME is separate from GNU/FSF.
    - cwyers 12y ago
      GNOME is listed under the GNU Project's software page: http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html The page http://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ http://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ is a redirect to gnome.org.
    - 12y ago
jlas 12y ago
I wonder how many best practices and contemporary OS techniques have come and gone in the Hurd's source code over the years.
robgibbons 12y ago
Theoretically speaking, does Hurd still have anything to offer over the Linux kernel's monolithic architecture?
- kjs3 12y ago
  Hurd (by way of Mach) has far more PhD papers.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  As it stands, the Hurd consists of file servers on top of Mach called translators, which provide OS services. It's a rustier version of what Plan 9 achieves via the 9P protocol. By academic standards the design is uninteresting and perhaps outdated, though if it had actually flourished in the 90s as it was intended, the use of a multiserver microkernel in a mainstream OS would have been quite the achievement back then.
  - robgibbons 12y ago
    Thanks vezzy... Very interesting reading about multiserver microkernels. I also found the following articles on the Hurd website very informative: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/technical-advantages-of-the-hurd.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/...

GNU Hurd

97 points by jdkanani 12y ago

xkcd2 12y ago

http://xkcd.com/1508/ http://xkcd.com/1508/

kjs3 12y ago
The idea that some elderly neckbeard would, decades after the fall, still be painfully hacking away at Hurd amid the decaying remnants of a dead civilization is a vision easy to see.

drivingmenuts 12y ago

GNU Hurd, the Daikatana edition.

twic 12y ago
I have it on good authority that the Hurd is being used as the engine in Half-Life 3.
- tomjen3 12y ago
  Kind of sad, I remember when Hurd was used in the same sentence as Duke Nukem Forever. Then they finished Duke..
  - ta0967 12y ago
    Au contraire, it's a reason to lighten up a little: we might live long enough to see HL3 and Hurd done!

agumonkey 12y ago

Just in case, Samuel Thibault does talks about Hurd somehow regularly : https://www.google.com/search?q=samuel+thibault+hurd https://www.google.com/search?q=samuel+thibault+hurd

talles 12y ago

Is there any specific reason why it's on the front page today? P.S.: Just checked xkcd, I guess it's because it have been mentioned in today's comic...

Jean-Philipe 12y ago
It's one of the things that pop up on HN every now and then, even with the same link submitted by somebody else...
cydonian_monk 12y ago
Weird. When I read xkcd this morning it didn't mention anything at all about GNU/Hurd. Apparently my RSS reader decided to cut off the far right side of that image, so it just ended "In Fire." Checked the site and the whole image is there. The alt-text makes a bit more sense now. Is it Friday yet?
smoyer 12y ago
2042 appears to be an important year in history!

FreakyT 12y ago

What is the deal with GNU Hurd? I know it's become a bit of a punchline for software being late, but does anyone use it for anything? This site says you can get a build of Debian based on Hurd instead of Linux -- does anyone use this? Is it purely an academic curiosity at this point?

TillE 12y ago
Multiple attempts at replacing the Mach microkernel have fizzled out, meaning it's not even academically interesting. If Coyotos or Viengoos or L4.Sec had ever worked out, there would be something genuinely useful that people might want to work on.
- alexvoda 12y ago
  I wasn't aware there were attempts to replace Mach with something else inside Hurd. I am really interested if you can share a bit of history about this; Especially if it's related to L4 and capability-computing. Same as Symmetry below, I would be interested in any L4 and seL4 based general purpose operating system project.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    Very brief history is here: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/history/port_to_another_microkernel.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/history/port_to_another_mi...
  - justincormack 12y ago
    Genode works on a variety of L4-based kernels, probably what you want to look at.
feedjoelpie 12y ago
It's more like a cultural curiosity. It's an attempt to get a full GNU system on top of a microkernel. Except they've never gotten a particularly complete system working with any acceptable level of performance on any of many microkernels attempted. It was already a punchline when I started trying to play with it in college circa 2004 or so.

justincormack 12y ago

If you are interested in trying a microkernel OS, Genode (genode.org) is pretty interesting, with a secure display architecture, ability to run Linux in a VM etc.

Symmetry 12y ago

I wonder if someone is working on building an OS around seL4 now that it's open sourced? Obviously it would have to be designed differently than HURD is, but it sounds like it would be a nifty project.

Symmetry 12y ago
A randomish additional thought. It seems like Arrakis[1]-like system is much more natural since then your database and your filesystem are both user level processes who have been given access to different hard drives. And your webserver and normal networking process can be different processes that have been given access to different channels on your ethernet connection. Of course I'm just a robotics engineer, this is all woolly speculation. [1]https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/presentation/peter https://www.usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/...

bshimmin 12y ago

I like how they're almost as fanatical about using the definite article as Apple are the opposite ("The GNU Hurd" vs. just "iPhone"): https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/what_is_the_gnu_hurd/gramatically_speaking.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/what_is_the_gnu_hurd/...

jheriko 12y ago

its still alive?!?!?!

Cyberis 12y ago

Oops! you misspelled the name. It begins with a 'T', not an 'H' :-)

mehrzad 12y ago

In any case, RMS is absolutely right about people not giving GNU enough credit in naming or in general.

amyjess 12y ago
GNU is becoming progressively less and less important. The "killer apps" for Linux have never been GNU. Apache httpd and XFree86/Xorg are by far and above the most popular applications on Linux, and they aren't GNU projects. Graphically, GNU is at its nadir of influence. Freedesktop.org controls most cross-desktop standards, libraries, and services. GNU's own desktop environment GNOME is no longer nearly as popular as it used to be thanks to GNOME 3 being actively hostile to desktop users (and GNOME has always been part of GNU on paper only -- it's effectively a Red Hat project). On the platform side, the init system has never been GNU. While the init system has always been a minor part of the OS, this is changing thanks to systemd (also a product of freedesktop.org) getting its hooks into everything on several levels. Actually, I'd go as far as to say that freedesktop.org has far more influence on the userland than GNU does right now.
- kjs3 12y ago
  GCC and it's ecosystem is a killer app. Without it, you likely wouldn't have had the others[1], including Linux itself. [1] X existed in the before time, but it was distinctly different than XFree86.
- dec0dedab0de 12y ago
  GNU's own desktop environment GNOME I am pretty sure GNOME is separate from GNU/FSF.
  - cwyers 12y ago
    GNOME is listed under the GNU Project's software page: http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html The page http://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ http://www.gnu.org/software/gnome/ is a redirect to gnome.org.
  - 12y ago

jlas 12y ago

I wonder how many best practices and contemporary OS techniques have come and gone in the Hurd's source code over the years.

robgibbons 12y ago

Theoretically speaking, does Hurd still have anything to offer over the Linux kernel's monolithic architecture?

kjs3 12y ago
Hurd (by way of Mach) has far more PhD papers.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
As it stands, the Hurd consists of file servers on top of Mach called translators, which provide OS services. It's a rustier version of what Plan 9 achieves via the 9P protocol. By academic standards the design is uninteresting and perhaps outdated, though if it had actually flourished in the 90s as it was intended, the use of a multiserver microkernel in a mainstream OS would have been quite the achievement back then.
- robgibbons 12y ago
  Thanks vezzy... Very interesting reading about multiserver microkernels. I also found the following articles on the Hurd website very informative: https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/advantages.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/technical-advantages-of-the-hurd.html https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/community/weblogs/ArneBab/...