3 ms·

I agree, and while I can appreciate the sentiment of wanting to go 'cashless' (hey, who here doesn't want to run a startup? (too easy)), trading goods and servi

by daeken 17y ago

I agree, and while I can appreciate the sentiment of wanting to go 'cashless' (hey, who here doesn't want to run a startup? (too easy)), trading goods and services is the same thing, just a different currency. There's a level of indirection, but the fundamental concepts are the same.

bad_user 17y ago
Actually ... spending money is a lot different from barter. If you're producing honey, you can't directly change that for guns. The fundamental concepts are really different ... previously owning $10 bill would mean that your bank stores an equivalent quantity in gold for you. Now $10 just means someone owes the bank $10 ... and it's really a useless piece of paper with an unrealistic value. That's really the reason behind an economic crisis. I wouldn't ever go and live cashless simply because it's like swimming against the tide, but it's true that money disconnects people from the goods they are buying, from the real cost of manufacturing, and ultimately ... from other people.
- pedrocr 17y ago
  Actually ... spending money is a lot different from barter. If you're producing honey, you can't directly change that for guns. What stops you? If the gun manufacturer wants honey you can trade. If that direct trade doesn't work you could do some intermediate ones till you got to the gun and that is the same as just issuing money, just more difficult to do. Why do people like bartering so much? Money is a better solution for the same problem. The fundamental concepts are really different ... previously owning $10 bill would mean that your bank stores an equivalent quantity in gold for you. Now $10 just means someone owes the bank $10 ... and it's really a useless piece of paper with an unrealistic value. That's really the reason behind an economic crisis. All money is debt, be it gold or not. All it means for me to have $10 is that society has agreed to give me that amount of goods or services in return for giving it back. It is always a debt, if it is represented in gold, paper or a number in a computer. In the previous model where the bank held $10 worth of gold for your bill if you redeem the bill for the gold what can you do with it now? There are industrial and decorative purposes but for you as an individual, what good does it do? I don't understand these arguments that gold is some kind of one-true-currency. The only thing having a gold standard does is set a fixed monetary policy. The monetary base cannot be expanded as the amount of gold is fixed. But the Fed could set the same policy without having to handle gold. Having the physical metal is just an implementation detail that used to be important but isn't anymore. If it's the monetary policy you don't like fight against that. Putting value in gold also motivates people to go digging around looking for this largely useless metal. That in itself is a drag on the economy as those people could be doing something more productive with their time.
- Tichy 17y ago
  "Now $10 just means someone owes the bank $10 ... and it's really a useless piece of paper with an unrealistic value." It's more complicated than that: of course if somebody asks you to give you something in return for a debt (a ka money), trust enters the picture. The less you trust that person, the less the money is worth. If a a person/bank says "tee he, I am not giving you anything in return for your debt/money anymore", you will not do any transactions with that entity anymore in the future. In that sense the system regulates itself - there is a risk attached to money, just like to anything else. People just took too much risk in the current crisis, powered by greed. Also of course because the risks were cleverly hidden, but it is not true that nobody had doubts. As for honey, of course you can exchange it for guns. Disconnecting from goods: it is not possible to manufacture everything yourself anymore. Of course that might be the real point of simple living: trying to only rely on stuff that you can manufacture yourself. But what if you get sick and need expensive medical equipment? I am very connected to the cost of "manufacturing" software atm...

by daeken 17y ago

bad_user 17y ago

Actually ... spending money is a lot different from barter. If you're producing honey, you can't directly change that for guns. The fundamental concepts are really different ... previously owning $10 bill would mean that your bank stores an equivalent quantity in gold for you. Now $10 just means someone owes the bank $10 ... and it's really a useless piece of paper with an unrealistic value. That's really the reason behind an economic crisis. I wouldn't ever go and live cashless simply because it's like swimming against the tide, but it's true that money disconnects people from the goods they are buying, from the real cost of manufacturing, and ultimately ... from other people.

pedrocr 17y ago
Actually ... spending money is a lot different from barter. If you're producing honey, you can't directly change that for guns. What stops you? If the gun manufacturer wants honey you can trade. If that direct trade doesn't work you could do some intermediate ones till you got to the gun and that is the same as just issuing money, just more difficult to do. Why do people like bartering so much? Money is a better solution for the same problem. The fundamental concepts are really different ... previously owning $10 bill would mean that your bank stores an equivalent quantity in gold for you. Now $10 just means someone owes the bank $10 ... and it's really a useless piece of paper with an unrealistic value. That's really the reason behind an economic crisis. All money is debt, be it gold or not. All it means for me to have $10 is that society has agreed to give me that amount of goods or services in return for giving it back. It is always a debt, if it is represented in gold, paper or a number in a computer. In the previous model where the bank held $10 worth of gold for your bill if you redeem the bill for the gold what can you do with it now? There are industrial and decorative purposes but for you as an individual, what good does it do? I don't understand these arguments that gold is some kind of one-true-currency. The only thing having a gold standard does is set a fixed monetary policy. The monetary base cannot be expanded as the amount of gold is fixed. But the Fed could set the same policy without having to handle gold. Having the physical metal is just an implementation detail that used to be important but isn't anymore. If it's the monetary policy you don't like fight against that. Putting value in gold also motivates people to go digging around looking for this largely useless metal. That in itself is a drag on the economy as those people could be doing something more productive with their time.
Tichy 17y ago
"Now $10 just means someone owes the bank $10 ... and it's really a useless piece of paper with an unrealistic value." It's more complicated than that: of course if somebody asks you to give you something in return for a debt (a ka money), trust enters the picture. The less you trust that person, the less the money is worth. If a a person/bank says "tee he, I am not giving you anything in return for your debt/money anymore", you will not do any transactions with that entity anymore in the future. In that sense the system regulates itself - there is a risk attached to money, just like to anything else. People just took too much risk in the current crisis, powered by greed. Also of course because the risks were cleverly hidden, but it is not true that nobody had doubts. As for honey, of course you can exchange it for guns. Disconnecting from goods: it is not possible to manufacture everything yourself anymore. Of course that might be the real point of simple living: trying to only rely on stuff that you can manufacture yourself. But what if you get sick and need expensive medical equipment? I am very connected to the cost of "manufacturing" software atm...