6 ms·

The success of Project Ara depends on Toshiba

35 points by ElvisMa 12y ago

x43b 12y ago
I am looking forward to Project Ara. Assuming my Moto X holds on long enough, an Ara type phone will be my next phone. I do not care if the Ara doubles the thickness of my Moto. That said, I am approaching it the same way I do Lego Mindstorms, Raspberry Pi, and Arduino. However, I do not think Ara will have the education angle those do to reach volume. I am not sure I see the real value outside of tinkerers. I plan to buy one but I do not expect to actually save money, electronics waste, or have better performance for the dollar.
dogma1138 12y ago
Seems to be yet another HN assisted DDoS attack since the site is being going up and down like crazy. On that note, I'm honestly not looking forward for project Ara at all. Seems to be quite a finicky concept and while i "loath" apple i do think that a purposely built device is much better over Lego type hardware. I don't mind some upgrade-ability but this to me seems like it will come at a much higher cost, bot in terms of overall cost and TCO having even more points of failure in a given device which will make it even less reliable and to have an overall shorter lifetime and for what exactly? I really don't see a single feature that i would want to upgrade on a phone in the 12-18 months I'll use it, and when i will want to upgrade one it will most likely mean i will want to upgrade them all. If i wan't a better screen at that point I'll want a better SOC to drive it, more memory to store higher resolution content on it etc. The only thing i see coming out of this is another "Beats" type scam with some silly audio parts and instragram branded cameras that will be sold for a huge markup. The only "benefit" we might get is that every "Ara" device will finally have a user serviceable battery, but considering that no matter how good their interconnect is the standard and protocol constraints will make it impossible to optimize every component like you could with a purposely designed device it's not much of a trade off either (especially considering that if you need replaceable batteries, many phones still come with them including the flagship phones from Samsung). /illpass.
- dman 12y ago
  For many people mobile phones are the dominant computer in their lives. I for one welcome any attempts to make them less monolithic. In an ideal world I would be able to freely mix and match the hardware, the OS, the application framework and the language for my mobile device. I admit the modular solutions might physically be clunkier and offer worse battery life. I am willing to live with some compromises on those if it means that I have more control over the device.
  - dogma1138 12y ago
    Well the current trends in personal computing is actually towards monolithic all in one devices, whether if it's the rise of the MAC's or the continuing trend in the PC world to put everything unto the mainboard or the CPU. 25-15 years ago your PC would've had 3-4 different extension cards, today unless you're a gamer or otherwise in need of a discrete graphics card you have none since they've migrated unto the CPU. And modern CPU's can run many games today even AAA title on quite acceptable settings for most casual Gamers, and that trend will only accelerate as they improve. With AMD built in "APU" being based on the same architecture as their discrete cards, Intel's IRIS being able to drive more and more games, and NVIDIA getting more experience in integrating their own discrete graphic cores with CPU's in their SOC i doubt we'll see discrete graphic cards for much longer, beyond that the only thing that you'll have on your board is your memory and that too with stacked and 3D dies will be integrated soon enough. You already have desktops the with a 10cm^2 footprint that have the same CPU and memory that you put in your tower, within a couple of years there won't be a single discrete component on that board at all. I for one don't see how being able to customize hardware translates to having any more control over the device i own than being able to select a device with the hardware i want. Infact the compromises forced by such architecture in my eyes result in less control as they force me to compromise on hardware to begin with. Today i can select a phone which has the screen i want, the battery i want, the camera i want and the SOC i want, yes i might be limited to certain vendors but i don't see this change if my phone comes as a single magical block without as much as a sim card slit or as a complete Lego set.
    - 12y ago
walterbell 12y ago
Specifications for the on-phone interconnect protocol, UniPro: http://mipi.org/specifications/unipro-specifications http://mipi.org/specifications/unipro-specifications Hopefully Project Ara can bring a PC-like open architecture to mobile devices, to unlock the combinatorial creativity of a multi-vendor interoperable ecosystem. This requires that the Google-controlled "Router" component will not exercise editorial policy or runtime tax on "Bridge" modules.
- nrp 12y ago
  I think it is more likely that PCs will continue to trend towards the fully integrated like architectures of mobile devices than the reverse. Things that are on daughterboards will continue to migrate to the mainboard, and things that are on the mainboard will continue to migrate to the main die. All in one desktops and compact laptops are likely going to continue to gain market share over modular desktop PCs.
  - walterbell 12y ago
    There are security benefits to disaggregation of vendors of peripherals (e.g. networking, radios) from vendors of CPU/SoC with integrated management.
- dogma1138 12y ago
  So now we'll have to put our trust in software and drivers? :) PC is open indeed, but for the love of me I can't remember the last time I've actually upgraded a PC. I usually buy a upper mid-range to lower high end PC (currently running Core I7 5820K, 980) but i actually very rare upgrade them. The ones I buy last me for the 2-3 years of which ever games i play at the time, when i can no longer play them at the graphical level i deem acceptable i buy a new one. And this is because the upgradeability of most PC's is sort of a myth, if you buy a hardware which is all of the same range when you'll have to upgrade a component the rest will become a bottle neck. And i don't see this being any different, the added cost of the router and the entire protocol simply writes off the benefits considering that an upgrade will require you to upgrade at least 3 major parts. On top of that you run the risk of the "router" most likely be turned incompatible within a few years simply because the standard will evolve to allow for additional bandwidth, different power requirements, an improved form factor etc. Take a look at PCI express for example from version 1 to 4 there were huge changes in bandwidth and power supply, and while some hardware kept backwards compatibility it was in most cases severely hindered by the bandwidth limitations. Put in a modern PCIE 3/4 graphics card in a PCI 1 or even 2 slot and you'll see the difference high end cards lose upto 75% of their performance, some wont work at all due to the power supply differences. Do you really think that for some reason that protocol would be exempt of that? We already have a combined creativity of a multi-vendor environment, open your phone it has components from a 100 vendors. There are memory vendors, SOC vendors, sensor vendors, radio vendors, screen cameras etc. You can have an LG phone with a top of the line Sony camera, and NVIDIA SOC and a Samsung memory in it, do you really need to add a plastic square that says Dr Dre to it? Not to mention that at least now you have the ability to debug issues with fair ease, if the PC over the past 40 years have not managed to tackle cross vendor compatibility even at a hardware level (just check the accepted hardware list for your mother board for example) not to mention on the software level what makes you so sure that this all of a sudden will? I would rather much see an easy way to connect peripheral discrete devices to my phone with ease for the extremely rare occasion i would (and atm i can't think of one) need it than to have to select different hardware for my phone hoping it will all work together than having 6 different vendors to get support and claim warranty from while hoping that at least 2 or 3 of my lovely blocks will be compatible with the next years model.
tdicola 12y ago
I remember when Ara was first announced that it was in a special Google program where it basically has to have results in a year or they shut it down. I'd love to know how it's tracking in that and if it looks like it will live on or be put on hold. I'm pretty sure it's coming up on a year old very soon. IMHO I think it's neat technology but I would not personally want all the trade-offs of more bulk and weight just to have the ability to swap out parts.
- walterbell 12y ago
  > I'd love to know how it's tracking in that and if it looks like it will live on or be put on hold. Project Ara received an extension: "A notable exception to the rule is Google's Project Ara, the modular Android smartphone with interchangeable components, which was granted an extension on its two-year deadline because it's promising enough that they're actually testing it in Puerto Rico." http://www.businessinsider.com/google-atap-killed-project-to-improve-mobile-battery-life-2015-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-atap-killed-project-to...
xbmcuser 12y ago
Currently computers are not modular and people that keep saying that they are actually tech enthusiasts that are willing to open up a pc and play with the innards. A modular phone and ability to hot swap parts is something completely different than what we have in pc currently. I hope it catches on and is adopted into other devices as well. IE taking out the gpu and processor from my phone and attaching it to my TV or tablet for gaming. Or the ability to upgrade the entertainment console in my car by just replacing a part.

35 points by ElvisMa 12y ago

x43b 12y ago

I am looking forward to Project Ara. Assuming my Moto X holds on long enough, an Ara type phone will be my next phone. I do not care if the Ara doubles the thickness of my Moto. That said, I am approaching it the same way I do Lego Mindstorms, Raspberry Pi, and Arduino. However, I do not think Ara will have the education angle those do to reach volume. I am not sure I see the real value outside of tinkerers. I plan to buy one but I do not expect to actually save money, electronics waste, or have better performance for the dollar.

dogma1138 12y ago

Seems to be yet another HN assisted DDoS attack since the site is being going up and down like crazy. On that note, I'm honestly not looking forward for project Ara at all. Seems to be quite a finicky concept and while i "loath" apple i do think that a purposely built device is much better over Lego type hardware. I don't mind some upgrade-ability but this to me seems like it will come at a much higher cost, bot in terms of overall cost and TCO having even more points of failure in a given device which will make it even less reliable and to have an overall shorter lifetime and for what exactly? I really don't see a single feature that i would want to upgrade on a phone in the 12-18 months I'll use it, and when i will want to upgrade one it will most likely mean i will want to upgrade them all. If i wan't a better screen at that point I'll want a better SOC to drive it, more memory to store higher resolution content on it etc. The only thing i see coming out of this is another "Beats" type scam with some silly audio parts and instragram branded cameras that will be sold for a huge markup. The only "benefit" we might get is that every "Ara" device will finally have a user serviceable battery, but considering that no matter how good their interconnect is the standard and protocol constraints will make it impossible to optimize every component like you could with a purposely designed device it's not much of a trade off either (especially considering that if you need replaceable batteries, many phones still come with them including the flagship phones from Samsung). /illpass.

dman 12y ago
For many people mobile phones are the dominant computer in their lives. I for one welcome any attempts to make them less monolithic. In an ideal world I would be able to freely mix and match the hardware, the OS, the application framework and the language for my mobile device. I admit the modular solutions might physically be clunkier and offer worse battery life. I am willing to live with some compromises on those if it means that I have more control over the device.
- dogma1138 12y ago
  Well the current trends in personal computing is actually towards monolithic all in one devices, whether if it's the rise of the MAC's or the continuing trend in the PC world to put everything unto the mainboard or the CPU. 25-15 years ago your PC would've had 3-4 different extension cards, today unless you're a gamer or otherwise in need of a discrete graphics card you have none since they've migrated unto the CPU. And modern CPU's can run many games today even AAA title on quite acceptable settings for most casual Gamers, and that trend will only accelerate as they improve. With AMD built in "APU" being based on the same architecture as their discrete cards, Intel's IRIS being able to drive more and more games, and NVIDIA getting more experience in integrating their own discrete graphic cores with CPU's in their SOC i doubt we'll see discrete graphic cards for much longer, beyond that the only thing that you'll have on your board is your memory and that too with stacked and 3D dies will be integrated soon enough. You already have desktops the with a 10cm^2 footprint that have the same CPU and memory that you put in your tower, within a couple of years there won't be a single discrete component on that board at all. I for one don't see how being able to customize hardware translates to having any more control over the device i own than being able to select a device with the hardware i want. Infact the compromises forced by such architecture in my eyes result in less control as they force me to compromise on hardware to begin with. Today i can select a phone which has the screen i want, the battery i want, the camera i want and the SOC i want, yes i might be limited to certain vendors but i don't see this change if my phone comes as a single magical block without as much as a sim card slit or as a complete Lego set.
  - 12y ago

walterbell 12y ago

Specifications for the on-phone interconnect protocol, UniPro: http://mipi.org/specifications/unipro-specifications http://mipi.org/specifications/unipro-specifications Hopefully Project Ara can bring a PC-like open architecture to mobile devices, to unlock the combinatorial creativity of a multi-vendor interoperable ecosystem. This requires that the Google-controlled "Router" component will not exercise editorial policy or runtime tax on "Bridge" modules.

nrp 12y ago
I think it is more likely that PCs will continue to trend towards the fully integrated like architectures of mobile devices than the reverse. Things that are on daughterboards will continue to migrate to the mainboard, and things that are on the mainboard will continue to migrate to the main die. All in one desktops and compact laptops are likely going to continue to gain market share over modular desktop PCs.
- walterbell 12y ago
  There are security benefits to disaggregation of vendors of peripherals (e.g. networking, radios) from vendors of CPU/SoC with integrated management.
dogma1138 12y ago
So now we'll have to put our trust in software and drivers? :) PC is open indeed, but for the love of me I can't remember the last time I've actually upgraded a PC. I usually buy a upper mid-range to lower high end PC (currently running Core I7 5820K, 980) but i actually very rare upgrade them. The ones I buy last me for the 2-3 years of which ever games i play at the time, when i can no longer play them at the graphical level i deem acceptable i buy a new one. And this is because the upgradeability of most PC's is sort of a myth, if you buy a hardware which is all of the same range when you'll have to upgrade a component the rest will become a bottle neck. And i don't see this being any different, the added cost of the router and the entire protocol simply writes off the benefits considering that an upgrade will require you to upgrade at least 3 major parts. On top of that you run the risk of the "router" most likely be turned incompatible within a few years simply because the standard will evolve to allow for additional bandwidth, different power requirements, an improved form factor etc. Take a look at PCI express for example from version 1 to 4 there were huge changes in bandwidth and power supply, and while some hardware kept backwards compatibility it was in most cases severely hindered by the bandwidth limitations. Put in a modern PCIE 3/4 graphics card in a PCI 1 or even 2 slot and you'll see the difference high end cards lose upto 75% of their performance, some wont work at all due to the power supply differences. Do you really think that for some reason that protocol would be exempt of that? We already have a combined creativity of a multi-vendor environment, open your phone it has components from a 100 vendors. There are memory vendors, SOC vendors, sensor vendors, radio vendors, screen cameras etc. You can have an LG phone with a top of the line Sony camera, and NVIDIA SOC and a Samsung memory in it, do you really need to add a plastic square that says Dr Dre to it? Not to mention that at least now you have the ability to debug issues with fair ease, if the PC over the past 40 years have not managed to tackle cross vendor compatibility even at a hardware level (just check the accepted hardware list for your mother board for example) not to mention on the software level what makes you so sure that this all of a sudden will? I would rather much see an easy way to connect peripheral discrete devices to my phone with ease for the extremely rare occasion i would (and atm i can't think of one) need it than to have to select different hardware for my phone hoping it will all work together than having 6 different vendors to get support and claim warranty from while hoping that at least 2 or 3 of my lovely blocks will be compatible with the next years model.

tdicola 12y ago

I remember when Ara was first announced that it was in a special Google program where it basically has to have results in a year or they shut it down. I'd love to know how it's tracking in that and if it looks like it will live on or be put on hold. I'm pretty sure it's coming up on a year old very soon. IMHO I think it's neat technology but I would not personally want all the trade-offs of more bulk and weight just to have the ability to swap out parts.

walterbell 12y ago
> I'd love to know how it's tracking in that and if it looks like it will live on or be put on hold. Project Ara received an extension: "A notable exception to the rule is Google's Project Ara, the modular Android smartphone with interchangeable components, which was granted an extension on its two-year deadline because it's promising enough that they're actually testing it in Puerto Rico." http://www.businessinsider.com/google-atap-killed-project-to-improve-mobile-battery-life-2015-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-atap-killed-project-to...

xbmcuser 12y ago

Currently computers are not modular and people that keep saying that they are actually tech enthusiasts that are willing to open up a pc and play with the innards. A modular phone and ability to hot swap parts is something completely different than what we have in pc currently. I hope it catches on and is adopted into other devices as well. IE taking out the gpu and processor from my phone and attaching it to my TV or tablet for gaming. Or the ability to upgrade the entertainment console in my car by just replacing a part.