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I agree that our voting system is very imperfect, but you can't argue with the results: The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the histor

I agree that our voting system is very imperfect, but you can't argue with the results: The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. > the odds are against any form of profound change Yet profound change happens over and over again. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) and women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men. Recently extreme conservative policies have been imposed on the nation. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. I agree there are many serious problems, but it's hardly hopeless. EDIT: I realize my post said that the U.S. is the best at all those things. I didn't meant to be taken that literally; my fault. To be more precise, relative to most of humanity through most of history (i.e., not relative to goals and principles of freedom, prosperity, justice, etc.), the U.S. does exceptionally well. Regardless, the argument I was making doesn't rely on the U.S. being at the very top in everything.

WalterSear 12y ago
>The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. The USA? That's a laughable claim.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. Now you're just being jingoistic. Prosperity I can give you, but safety (which does not trump liberty, I'm afraid) and health are areas where the USA lags behind. What categories would you use to determine safety anyway - crime rates in general, murder rates, the level of security theater? Freedom is a quality which evades measurement. There's plenty of countries which have greater social mobility, personal autonomy and social acceptance of historically deviant behaviors than the USA. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) How is this relevant to voting or mending deeply flawed mechanics of how the government is run? The civil rights movement got rid of heinous barriers, it didn't make any changes to fundamental technical workings. women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men The Western world sort of convened on this at around the same time period. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. Highly skilled communicator, policies no different from the norm over the past few decades. Oh, and black. Right.
- hackuser 12y ago
  It's just one post on the Internet so I don't want to make too big a deal about it, but FWIW the name-calling really stops the discussion. It signals to me that what follows will have the same tone and thoughtfulness, and it's also just an unpleasant way to spend my time.
  - foldr 12y ago
    vezzy-fnord didn't call you any names.
CapitalistCartr 12y ago
Those claims seem dubious when compared to New Zealand, Iceland, or the Scandanavian countries.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  Massachusetts is larger and fares better that those countries. Europe would be a better comparison size wise but does not fare so well against the US.
  - rmxt 12y ago
    Yet another opportunity taken to bash Europe! Try harder next time: Income inequality (Gini coefficient, CIA Gini): EU: 30.4 US: 45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... Life expectancy at birth: EU: 80.02 US: 79.56 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world... Infant mortality (per 1000 live births): EU: 4.33 US: 6.17 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world... Homicide rate: Europe (as a whole): 3.0 US: 4.7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... Freedom of the press index (lower is better): EU (weighted by population): 17.32 US: 18.22 https://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html https://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html
    - happyscrappy 12y ago
      Europe is mostly irrelevant but obsessed with the US. Wake me when they start closing US military bases.
      - minot 12y ago
        I don't understand the obsession with being the best in class or the best in history. Why does it matter? We have to try to be good. We have to try to be better than we were yesterday but why do we feel the need to outdo everyone else? When it comes to things like infant mortality rate, it isn't a competition to be the best. If we have an infant mortality of 7 and Sweden has it at 8, it is nothing to boast about. If it is about things like how many polio cases, saying that there is zero case in USA vs a hundred cases in Pakistan does not help anybody. Off topic but just want to note here that I am me. I am not my country. I am not my religion. http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html
rmxt 12y ago
The United States may be the most prosperous depending on how you define that, but it's not any of the other three. To call it those is to blatantly ignore other countries doing certain things better than the United States. Furthermore, I'd argue that since the prosperity is concentrated to a greater extent in the United States than in other countries, that that prosperity is mostly illusory for the majority of the population. Not the freest (press, 46th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_a... Not the healthiest (5th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2014_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2014_r... Not the safest: (108th lowest intentional homicide rate, 2nd most incarcerated nation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Its also not the most prosperous, except in aggregate (where mere size is a significant factor.)
cheetos 12y ago
> The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. Maybe 40-50 years ago (if you were white). Maybe. Absolutely not today.

WalterSear 12y ago

>The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. The USA? That's a laughable claim.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. Now you're just being jingoistic. Prosperity I can give you, but safety (which does not trump liberty, I'm afraid) and health are areas where the USA lags behind. What categories would you use to determine safety anyway - crime rates in general, murder rates, the level of security theater? Freedom is a quality which evades measurement. There's plenty of countries which have greater social mobility, personal autonomy and social acceptance of historically deviant behaviors than the USA. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) How is this relevant to voting or mending deeply flawed mechanics of how the government is run? The civil rights movement got rid of heinous barriers, it didn't make any changes to fundamental technical workings. women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men The Western world sort of convened on this at around the same time period. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. Highly skilled communicator, policies no different from the norm over the past few decades. Oh, and black. Right.

hackuser 12y ago
It's just one post on the Internet so I don't want to make too big a deal about it, but FWIW the name-calling really stops the discussion. It signals to me that what follows will have the same tone and thoughtfulness, and it's also just an unpleasant way to spend my time.
- foldr 12y ago
  vezzy-fnord didn't call you any names.

CapitalistCartr 12y ago

Those claims seem dubious when compared to New Zealand, Iceland, or the Scandanavian countries.

happyscrappy 12y ago
Massachusetts is larger and fares better that those countries. Europe would be a better comparison size wise but does not fare so well against the US.
- rmxt 12y ago
  Yet another opportunity taken to bash Europe! Try harder next time: Income inequality (Gini coefficient, CIA Gini): EU: 30.4 US: 45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... Life expectancy at birth: EU: 80.02 US: 79.56 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world... Infant mortality (per 1000 live births): EU: 4.33 US: 6.17 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/resources/the-world... Homicide rate: Europe (as a whole): 3.0 US: 4.7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... Freedom of the press index (lower is better): EU (weighted by population): 17.32 US: 18.22 https://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html https://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2013,1054.html
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    Europe is mostly irrelevant but obsessed with the US. Wake me when they start closing US military bases.
    - minot 12y ago
      I don't understand the obsession with being the best in class or the best in history. Why does it matter? We have to try to be good. We have to try to be better than we were yesterday but why do we feel the need to outdo everyone else? When it comes to things like infant mortality rate, it isn't a competition to be the best. If we have an infant mortality of 7 and Sweden has it at 8, it is nothing to boast about. If it is about things like how many polio cases, saying that there is zero case in USA vs a hundred cases in Pakistan does not help anybody. Off topic but just want to note here that I am me. I am not my country. I am not my religion. http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

rmxt 12y ago

The United States may be the most prosperous depending on how you define that, but it's not any of the other three. To call it those is to blatantly ignore other countries doing certain things better than the United States. Furthermore, I'd argue that since the prosperity is concentrated to a greater extent in the United States than in other countries, that that prosperity is mostly illusory for the majority of the population. Not the freest (press, 46th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_a... Not the healthiest (5th): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2014_report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2014_r... Not the safest: (108th lowest intentional homicide rate, 2nd most incarcerated nation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

dragonwriter 12y ago
Its also not the most prosperous, except in aggregate (where mere size is a significant factor.)

cheetos 12y ago

> The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. Maybe 40-50 years ago (if you were white). Maybe. Absolutely not today.