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I've always found this argument from voter apathy to be unpersuasive and arrogant. The voting system in the United States is rather uniquely damaged with its f

I've always found this argument from voter apathy to be unpersuasive and arrogant. The voting system in the United States is rather uniquely damaged with its first-past-the-post (majoritarian) elections, over a century's worth of gerrymandering that goes on strong as ever, stringent ballot access laws, public debate restrictions (which I take became stronger after Ross Perot) and so on. It has all been meticulously crafted so that the odds are against any form of profound change, but rather to enforce the party dichotomy and have representatives maintain a comfortable status quo. The aforementioned gerrymandering strongly encourages vehement and almost parade-like, but ultimately empty and financially wasteful political campaigns, along with focusing one's efforts on leaving an impression only in certain key states and districts that are really decisive to one's performance. Yet even people who are well versed in statistics and probability often seem to grant an exception for the insanity of voting in the United States, out of a perverse democratic ideal that ultimately isn't really there. Without some truly disruptive changes to how elections are structured (hardly a trivial matter, what with the rather fundamental chilling effect they'd have on how people have been doing things for so long), I personally find voting to be not worth one's time.

waqf 12y ago
Don't forget the tightly-held media pumping out propaganda to remind The People that the status quo in America is the best in the world, is perfectly democratic and is exactly in line with how it was conceived by 18th-century philosopher-gods.
hackuser 12y ago
I agree that our voting system is very imperfect, but you can't argue with the results: The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. > the odds are against any form of profound change Yet profound change happens over and over again. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) and women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men. Recently extreme conservative policies have been imposed on the nation. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. I agree there are many serious problems, but it's hardly hopeless. EDIT: I realize my post said that the U.S. is the best at all those things. I didn't meant to be taken that literally; my fault. To be more precise, relative to most of humanity through most of history (i.e., not relative to goals and principles of freedom, prosperity, justice, etc.), the U.S. does exceptionally well. Regardless, the argument I was making doesn't rely on the U.S. being at the very top in everything.
- WalterSear 12y ago
  >The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. The USA? That's a laughable claim.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. Now you're just being jingoistic. Prosperity I can give you, but safety (which does not trump liberty, I'm afraid) and health are areas where the USA lags behind. What categories would you use to determine safety anyway - crime rates in general, murder rates, the level of security theater? Freedom is a quality which evades measurement. There's plenty of countries which have greater social mobility, personal autonomy and social acceptance of historically deviant behaviors than the USA. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) How is this relevant to voting or mending deeply flawed mechanics of how the government is run? The civil rights movement got rid of heinous barriers, it didn't make any changes to fundamental technical workings. women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men The Western world sort of convened on this at around the same time period. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. Highly skilled communicator, policies no different from the norm over the past few decades. Oh, and black. Right.
  - hackuser 12y ago
    It's just one post on the Internet so I don't want to make too big a deal about it, but FWIW the name-calling really stops the discussion. It signals to me that what follows will have the same tone and thoughtfulness, and it's also just an unpleasant way to spend my time.
    - foldr 12y ago
      vezzy-fnord didn't call you any names.
- CapitalistCartr 12y ago
  Those claims seem dubious when compared to New Zealand, Iceland, or the Scandanavian countries.
Frondo 12y ago
To be quite honest, with attitudes like that, I'm glad you stay home on voting day. I'm no rah-rah booster of American politics by any means--I think they're corrupted almost beyond recognition, especially at the federal level--but I still don't see any better way to enact a government by and for the people than to cast a vote for how we feel every so often. And from where I sit, it's working, in fits and starts, to make a better world: * In my state, and the neighboring state, cannabis is now legal, and you can go buy yourself some pot at a retail store with nothing but cash and an ID to verify age * Across the country, freelancers like me can now buy health insurance, where before it was so ridiculously expensive, it felt like throwing away thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars every year * At the local level, a nearby jurisdiction is working to ban criminal background checks on job applications, to reduce the barriers for ex-cons to re-enter the workforce * Minimum wage laws in municipalities along the west coast are helping lift up the always-hard-working, always-underpaid lowest class of workers This is all stuff that comes either from direct citizen participation, or for voting for someone who had that as a part of their policy platform. Can I vote to end American meddling in the middle east? No, and that's frustrating. Can I vote to get some national recognition on the science of climate change? No, though I can vote for people who acknowledge it (and I do). But can voting change the world you live in? Oh yes.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  I'm not opposed to voting, but to plurality rule. It seems like you totally misunderstand my point because to you "voting" is synonymous with majoritarian elections.
  - Frondo 12y ago
    I didn't mean to misunderstand your point, but I think it is not that clearly made in the original post, and now that you've said it clearly, I think it's a little irrelevant to the bigger question of governance and social change. You're raising legitimate complaints about the brokenness of our voting system, and I agree. I'd like to see other voting systems put into place at local/state levels, with an eye toward implementing them nationally; something like range voting, or one of the other "pick your favorites" voting schemes. Where I get the biggest sense of frustration in your post, it's the sense that we can't do much with our votes, e.g. when you said "the odds are against any form of profound change" and "I personally find voting to be not worth one's time". Well, yeah, a vote on its own isn't enough to make the change you want to see. You do have to get involved, if people aren't already organized at getting your ideas out there, to get it to the level of being voted on. My pot legalization example, I voted on that, but I know people who were involved in the GOTV efforts, the initiative process, the whole nine yards. But the whole years-long campaign culminated in a vote, the final test of "does the public buy our argument?" Tell them about how it isn't even worth bothering to vote.

waqf 12y ago

Don't forget the tightly-held media pumping out propaganda to remind The People that the status quo in America is the best in the world, is perfectly democratic and is exactly in line with how it was conceived by 18th-century philosopher-gods.

hackuser 12y ago

I agree that our voting system is very imperfect, but you can't argue with the results: The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. > the odds are against any form of profound change Yet profound change happens over and over again. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) and women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men. Recently extreme conservative policies have been imposed on the nation. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. I agree there are many serious problems, but it's hardly hopeless. EDIT: I realize my post said that the U.S. is the best at all those things. I didn't meant to be taken that literally; my fault. To be more precise, relative to most of humanity through most of history (i.e., not relative to goals and principles of freedom, prosperity, justice, etc.), the U.S. does exceptionally well. Regardless, the argument I was making doesn't rely on the U.S. being at the very top in everything.

WalterSear 12y ago
>The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. The USA? That's a laughable claim.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
The most prosperous, safest, healthiest, most free society in the history of humanity. Now you're just being jingoistic. Prosperity I can give you, but safety (which does not trump liberty, I'm afraid) and health are areas where the USA lags behind. What categories would you use to determine safety anyway - crime rates in general, murder rates, the level of security theater? Freedom is a quality which evades measurement. There's plenty of countries which have greater social mobility, personal autonomy and social acceptance of historically deviant behaviors than the USA. Segregation is now gone (and the black middle class has exploded in size) How is this relevant to voting or mending deeply flawed mechanics of how the government is run? The civil rights movement got rid of heinous barriers, it didn't make any changes to fundamental technical workings. women are now educated and work in greater numbers than men The Western world sort of convened on this at around the same time period. Or just look closely at a photo of the current President of the United States and see if you notice something surprising. Highly skilled communicator, policies no different from the norm over the past few decades. Oh, and black. Right.
- hackuser 12y ago
  It's just one post on the Internet so I don't want to make too big a deal about it, but FWIW the name-calling really stops the discussion. It signals to me that what follows will have the same tone and thoughtfulness, and it's also just an unpleasant way to spend my time.
  - foldr 12y ago
    vezzy-fnord didn't call you any names.
CapitalistCartr 12y ago
Those claims seem dubious when compared to New Zealand, Iceland, or the Scandanavian countries.

Frondo 12y ago

To be quite honest, with attitudes like that, I'm glad you stay home on voting day. I'm no rah-rah booster of American politics by any means--I think they're corrupted almost beyond recognition, especially at the federal level--but I still don't see any better way to enact a government by and for the people than to cast a vote for how we feel every so often. And from where I sit, it's working, in fits and starts, to make a better world: * In my state, and the neighboring state, cannabis is now legal, and you can go buy yourself some pot at a retail store with nothing but cash and an ID to verify age * Across the country, freelancers like me can now buy health insurance, where before it was so ridiculously expensive, it felt like throwing away thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars every year * At the local level, a nearby jurisdiction is working to ban criminal background checks on job applications, to reduce the barriers for ex-cons to re-enter the workforce * Minimum wage laws in municipalities along the west coast are helping lift up the always-hard-working, always-underpaid lowest class of workers This is all stuff that comes either from direct citizen participation, or for voting for someone who had that as a part of their policy platform. Can I vote to end American meddling in the middle east? No, and that's frustrating. Can I vote to get some national recognition on the science of climate change? No, though I can vote for people who acknowledge it (and I do). But can voting change the world you live in? Oh yes.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
I'm not opposed to voting, but to plurality rule. It seems like you totally misunderstand my point because to you "voting" is synonymous with majoritarian elections.
- Frondo 12y ago
  I didn't mean to misunderstand your point, but I think it is not that clearly made in the original post, and now that you've said it clearly, I think it's a little irrelevant to the bigger question of governance and social change. You're raising legitimate complaints about the brokenness of our voting system, and I agree. I'd like to see other voting systems put into place at local/state levels, with an eye toward implementing them nationally; something like range voting, or one of the other "pick your favorites" voting schemes. Where I get the biggest sense of frustration in your post, it's the sense that we can't do much with our votes, e.g. when you said "the odds are against any form of profound change" and "I personally find voting to be not worth one's time". Well, yeah, a vote on its own isn't enough to make the change you want to see. You do have to get involved, if people aren't already organized at getting your ideas out there, to get it to the level of being voted on. My pot legalization example, I voted on that, but I know people who were involved in the GOTV efforts, the initiative process, the whole nine yards. But the whole years-long campaign culminated in a vote, the final test of "does the public buy our argument?" Tell them about how it isn't even worth bothering to vote.