4 ms·

Is this a US only phenomenon or is it happening in other countries too?

by josu 12y ago

Foomandoonian 12y ago
I was wondering this recently. It's hard to imagine this happening here in the UK. The thought of police in riot gear kicking down doors and waving guns around sounds beyond crazy to me.
- iLoch 12y ago
  No knock entries are indeed insane - I don't understand the scenario that would be required for a no-knock entry to be the only acceptable option. Are the police scared of the occupants firing guns at them? That would be ironic.
  - cperciva 12y ago
    I don't understand the scenario that would be required for a no-knock entry to be the only acceptable option. The classic example is if the police think that evidence could be destroyed very quickly, e.g., electronic records.
    - XorNot 12y ago
      Which would be exactly what's not happening if "a guy has a gun". Either someone is in danger, in which case no-knock isn't needed, or they're not, in which case why the hell is a SWAT raid being carried out on the basis of an anonymous tip?
    - 15155 12y ago
      This is such a bullshit reason: For one, you could detect these no-knocking individuals quite easily: - Cameras on the exterior of the property - Motion lights, motion sensors, motion bells are all quite cheap. And re: destruction/obfuscation of electronic evidence- -"One-click" destruction scripts, etc. - TrueCrypt volumes, everywhere. Circuit breakers, power strips, etc. with switches. If you don't manage to destroy the volume, no aggressor will be able to access it. - Degaussing setups for spinning disks, activated by similar mechanisms. This stuff is pretty cheap, easily available. Anybody caught by these technically-incompetent police executing no-knock raids deserves to be caught. Hell, if you don't have a few 6TB volumes full of random bits, labeled "Evidence," you aren't doing it right. Gotta tie up those investigative resources somehow.
      - SamReidHughes 12y ago
        What people could do doesn't matter, it's what they do do.
  - Paradigma11 12y ago
    A situation with hostages where the perp has already killed and is unaware that the police has arrived.
- DanBC 12y ago
  American police kill about 1,000 people per year. There's a thing going round saying that US police in March killed more people than UK police killed since 1900 but none of the sources look particularly reliable. About half the people killed by police have mental health problems. This is an estimate because national data isn't collected. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/03/idaho-police-shootings-jeanetta-riley-justice-for-arfee http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/03/idaho-police-... http://tacreports.org/storage/documents/2013-justifiable-homicides.pdf http://tacreports.org/storage/documents/2013-justifiable-hom... But, for the UK, don't forget the several bad shootings of innocent or unarmed men. Wikipedia has a list of all killings involving a police officer in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforce...
  - mattmanser 12y ago
    Several bad shootings over decades? What's your point? What a strange thing to say. We don't shoot many people, America do. It's such a huge, cavernous gulf in magnitude that I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last paragraph.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      I'm saying that it's wrong to think that armed police officers do better than armed US officers. We mostly don't have armed officers over here. Where they are armed mistakes happen and people die, so it's important to keep UK officers unarmed. Also: yes, even those few deaths are totally unacceptable in the UK. People are shocked by police shootings; investigations are rigorous. Contrast that to the US where shootin a dog sparks mass outrage but shooting a drunk pregnant woman doesn't.
kiiski 12y ago
There was recently some articles about the phenomenon in the Finnish Helsinki Times, but they say it mainly happens in the USA "due to the agressive operating culture of the countrys police"[1]. Apparently the people calling the swat strike may be from other countries. [1] in finnish: http://nyt.fi/a1305943609673 http://nyt.fi/a1305943609673
- iLoch 12y ago
  I don't know if you can entirely blame the police. These scenarios are sort of a product of their environment: guns are very available in the US and there's no room to make assumptions about emergency calls. Police are forced to respond like its a real scenario - almost like a low level DDoS attack. Makes you wonder what these SWATers are saying to police.
  - mapt 12y ago
    Guns were very available to civilians in the US before we started giving the police military hardware, before we escalated paramilitary tactics from a few dozen teams around the country to every single department, before the no-knock warrant and the guns-drawn entry and the highest incarceration rate in the world. This stuff doesn't have to be the standard. This is a fad borne of the fact that most people who are SWATed find boots on their necks and cuffs on their wrists before they're capable of explaining themselves. If they're lucky.
  - justizin 12y ago
    My understanding of this situation from following on Twitter is that they claimed to be at her location, armed, with a hostage, asking for ransom. I'm doing my best to spare the diatribe about how the Oakland Police Department is essentially the worst police department in the US. Let's just take a step back. In what world does someone who wants a ransom for a hostage call the police? This isn't something that happens, except in action movies. The entire narrative, including the police reaction, is straight out of a sophomore film student's twisted imagination. The police, esp in the US, but in general, aren't designed to protect and serve, they're designed to eliminate threats to power. Right now Oakland has a new mayor who wants to make sure voters see that she is tough on crime. This situation is an unfortunate collision of two worlds that know very little about each other. :/
steeve 12y ago
Happened in France, too (in french) http://www.lexpress.fr/culture/jeux-video/swatting-bibix-premier-joueur-victime-de-ce-type-de-canular-en-france_1650742.html http://www.lexpress.fr/culture/jeux-video/swatting-bibix-pre...

Is this a US only phenomenon or is it happening in other countries too?

by josu 12y ago

Is this a US only phenomenon or is it happening in other countries too?

I was wondering this recently. It's hard to imagine this happening here in the UK. The thought of police in riot gear kicking down doors and waving guns around sounds beyond crazy to me.

iLoch 12y ago
No knock entries are indeed insane - I don't understand the scenario that would be required for a no-knock entry to be the only acceptable option. Are the police scared of the occupants firing guns at them? That would be ironic.
- cperciva 12y ago
  I don't understand the scenario that would be required for a no-knock entry to be the only acceptable option. The classic example is if the police think that evidence could be destroyed very quickly, e.g., electronic records.
  - XorNot 12y ago
    Which would be exactly what's not happening if "a guy has a gun". Either someone is in danger, in which case no-knock isn't needed, or they're not, in which case why the hell is a SWAT raid being carried out on the basis of an anonymous tip?
  - 15155 12y ago
    This is such a bullshit reason: For one, you could detect these no-knocking individuals quite easily: - Cameras on the exterior of the property - Motion lights, motion sensors, motion bells are all quite cheap. And re: destruction/obfuscation of electronic evidence- -"One-click" destruction scripts, etc. - TrueCrypt volumes, everywhere. Circuit breakers, power strips, etc. with switches. If you don't manage to destroy the volume, no aggressor will be able to access it. - Degaussing setups for spinning disks, activated by similar mechanisms. This stuff is pretty cheap, easily available. Anybody caught by these technically-incompetent police executing no-knock raids deserves to be caught. Hell, if you don't have a few 6TB volumes full of random bits, labeled "Evidence," you aren't doing it right. Gotta tie up those investigative resources somehow.
    - SamReidHughes 12y ago
      What people could do doesn't matter, it's what they do do.
- Paradigma11 12y ago
  A situation with hostages where the perp has already killed and is unaware that the police has arrived.
DanBC 12y ago
American police kill about 1,000 people per year. There's a thing going round saying that US police in March killed more people than UK police killed since 1900 but none of the sources look particularly reliable. About half the people killed by police have mental health problems. This is an estimate because national data isn't collected. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/03/idaho-police-shootings-jeanetta-riley-justice-for-arfee http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/03/idaho-police-... http://tacreports.org/storage/documents/2013-justifiable-homicides.pdf http://tacreports.org/storage/documents/2013-justifiable-hom... But, for the UK, don't forget the several bad shootings of innocent or unarmed men. Wikipedia has a list of all killings involving a police officer in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforce...
- mattmanser 12y ago
  Several bad shootings over decades? What's your point? What a strange thing to say. We don't shoot many people, America do. It's such a huge, cavernous gulf in magnitude that I have no idea what point you're trying to make with your last paragraph.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    I'm saying that it's wrong to think that armed police officers do better than armed US officers. We mostly don't have armed officers over here. Where they are armed mistakes happen and people die, so it's important to keep UK officers unarmed. Also: yes, even those few deaths are totally unacceptable in the UK. People are shocked by police shootings; investigations are rigorous. Contrast that to the US where shootin a dog sparks mass outrage but shooting a drunk pregnant woman doesn't.

kiiski 12y ago

There was recently some articles about the phenomenon in the Finnish Helsinki Times, but they say it mainly happens in the USA "due to the agressive operating culture of the countrys police"[1]. Apparently the people calling the swat strike may be from other countries. [1] in finnish: http://nyt.fi/a1305943609673 http://nyt.fi/a1305943609673

iLoch 12y ago
I don't know if you can entirely blame the police. These scenarios are sort of a product of their environment: guns are very available in the US and there's no room to make assumptions about emergency calls. Police are forced to respond like its a real scenario - almost like a low level DDoS attack. Makes you wonder what these SWATers are saying to police.
- mapt 12y ago
  Guns were very available to civilians in the US before we started giving the police military hardware, before we escalated paramilitary tactics from a few dozen teams around the country to every single department, before the no-knock warrant and the guns-drawn entry and the highest incarceration rate in the world. This stuff doesn't have to be the standard. This is a fad borne of the fact that most people who are SWATed find boots on their necks and cuffs on their wrists before they're capable of explaining themselves. If they're lucky.
- justizin 12y ago
  My understanding of this situation from following on Twitter is that they claimed to be at her location, armed, with a hostage, asking for ransom. I'm doing my best to spare the diatribe about how the Oakland Police Department is essentially the worst police department in the US. Let's just take a step back. In what world does someone who wants a ransom for a hostage call the police? This isn't something that happens, except in action movies. The entire narrative, including the police reaction, is straight out of a sophomore film student's twisted imagination. The police, esp in the US, but in general, aren't designed to protect and serve, they're designed to eliminate threats to power. Right now Oakland has a new mayor who wants to make sure voters see that she is tough on crime. This situation is an unfortunate collision of two worlds that know very little about each other. :/

steeve 12y ago

Happened in France, too (in french) http://www.lexpress.fr/culture/jeux-video/swatting-bibix-premier-joueur-victime-de-ce-type-de-canular-en-france_1650742.html http://www.lexpress.fr/culture/jeux-video/swatting-bibix-pre...