5 ms·

Dijit, i'm not being racist here. I'm being political here. Russia having a "claim" on the baltic states is a public secret. Russia trying to subvert and destab

by coretx 12y ago

Dijit, i'm not being racist here. I'm being political here. Russia having a "claim" on the baltic states is a public secret. Russia trying to subvert and destabilize the baltic states is publically known as well. Regarding your EU statements, have you read the offical opinion of the EU on Russia ? It's a THREAT to the European Union, especially regarding the baltic member states. However, the documents also note that Russian maffia connected to the Kremlin also has french mayors on their payroll. Please don't underestimate the geopolitical aspect of this topic. And certainly, don't downplay political arguments as "racism", because that's not what this is about.

cpursley 12y ago
"Russia trying to subvert and destabilize the baltic states is publically known as well." What a crock of bullshit.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  People in Baltics disagree with that. "Russian President Vladimir Putin was a "real and present danger" to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and NATO was getting ready to repel any aggression, British Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said." [0] "Michael Fallon, the British defense secretary, warned that there is a real and present danger that Russian President Vladimir Putin will launch a campaign of undercover attacks to destabilize the Baltic states, in an interview given to the Daily Telegraph. Estonian politicians said that there is a reason to be vigilant, but asked to avoid hysteria." [1] While there is no imminent threat of attack, the Russian antagonism towards Baltic states has been very very evident to everybody since the Bronze Warrior clashes. "According to historian Alexander Daniel, the Bronze Soldier has symbolic value to Estonia's Russians, symbolising not only Soviet victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War, but also their claim to rights in Estonia.[18] Most Estonians considered the Bronze Soldier a symbol of Soviet occupation and repression following World War II.[19]" [2] Seeing how Russian proxies and provocateurs make propaganda, a claim about Russian attempts to destabilize Baltic states is not bullshit at all. [0] http://vm.ee/et/uudised/eesti-valismeedias-19-veebruar-2015-25-veebruar-2015 http://vm.ee/et/uudised/eesti-valismeedias-19-veebruar-2015-... [1] http://news.err.ee/v/International/21492b15-2486-4720-aeb8-89b206357581 http://news.err.ee/v/International/21492b15-2486-4720-aeb8-8... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    As an up-to-date addendum, Estonian president Toomas Hendrik Ilves just says in The Times that "Nato ‘must respond to Russian cyber assault’" Estonians definitely worry about this. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4400661.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article44006...
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - krick 12y ago
    You mean "some mass-media claims people in Baltics disagree with that". I don't really want to interfere with all that information war of yours, but as a Baltic citizen I feel almost offended by generalizations like that. Most people I know (including myself) would strongly claim this is bullshit, and have ironically-scornful attitude towards journalists and politicians spreading all that hysteria you are referring to as "the sources". Of course here are people, who feel otherwise, but I have ironically-scornful attitude towards them as well.
    - ptaipale 12y ago
      There are at least enough Estonians who agree to elect a president who clearly does see a potential Russian threat. Of course there are Baltic citizens who are not worried by Russia. There are hundreds of thousands of Baltic citizens who are ethnic Russians and do not want to be anything else, after all. And most people they know will be similar to themselves of course, because people on both sides of this ethnic divide live in ethnic bubbles. (Yes, again a generalization that does not apply to each and every person.) But I would claim that a majority of Baltic citizens, particularly people of ethnically Baltic origin, are worried about Russia (and ethnic Russian minorities are not). At least that's what the election results look like.
      - krick 12y ago
        What I'm gonna say is pretty harsh, but, you see, for a long time (almost as long, as I remember myself at all) I have a feeling that election results don't matter. Not because "majority makes a wrong choice", no. There's just no choice. Either you go in politics yourself or you say "fuck them" and try to make living being affected by all these guys on TV as less as possible. No difference what they say. What they will do when elected is of no use anyway. Where I live (Latvia) I remember 1 somewhat useful president and 0 useful premier ministers. For me they are just like weather or something: they are just there, I don't really pray God to protect me from bad weather, I build a house that will. In fact, I've seen politicians who are making their image as pro-russian and ultra-anti-russian perfectly hanging out "after work" together, so I don't believe in their play a tiniest bit. Nor do all the rational people I know, of both russian and latvian origin. It's kinda obvious that this theater is oriented towards not-so-educated aggressive minorities in order to gather votes. Normal people just don't care. In fact, we don't care so much that jokes about "wish these effing russians would leave Latvia already!" are perfectly fine amongst our russian friends (which actually surprised me at first, because some 15 years ago people were a bit more radical here). I'm just tired of all this "latvian/russian" thing, I don't really understand what "nationality" or "origin" is anyways. The only "international matter"-thing that bothers me where I live is NATO-soldiers playing war on one of our polygons: you cannot imagine how much noise these bastards make! Of course I don't really know how things are in Estonia as I don't live there all the time, but impression I've got from visiting and communicating with people who do live there isn't really much worse.
- flixic 12y ago
  As a citizen of Lithuania, I disagree. You can feel destabilization efforts here.
- fleetfox 12y ago
  And you would know.

by coretx 12y ago

cpursley 12y ago

"Russia trying to subvert and destabilize the baltic states is publically known as well." What a crock of bullshit.

ptaipale 12y ago
People in Baltics disagree with that. "Russian President Vladimir Putin was a "real and present danger" to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and NATO was getting ready to repel any aggression, British Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said." [0] "Michael Fallon, the British defense secretary, warned that there is a real and present danger that Russian President Vladimir Putin will launch a campaign of undercover attacks to destabilize the Baltic states, in an interview given to the Daily Telegraph. Estonian politicians said that there is a reason to be vigilant, but asked to avoid hysteria." [1] While there is no imminent threat of attack, the Russian antagonism towards Baltic states has been very very evident to everybody since the Bronze Warrior clashes. "According to historian Alexander Daniel, the Bronze Soldier has symbolic value to Estonia's Russians, symbolising not only Soviet victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War, but also their claim to rights in Estonia.[18] Most Estonians considered the Bronze Soldier a symbol of Soviet occupation and repression following World War II.[19]" [2] Seeing how Russian proxies and provocateurs make propaganda, a claim about Russian attempts to destabilize Baltic states is not bullshit at all. [0] http://vm.ee/et/uudised/eesti-valismeedias-19-veebruar-2015-25-veebruar-2015 http://vm.ee/et/uudised/eesti-valismeedias-19-veebruar-2015-... [1] http://news.err.ee/v/International/21492b15-2486-4720-aeb8-89b206357581 http://news.err.ee/v/International/21492b15-2486-4720-aeb8-8... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Soldier_of_Tallinn
- ptaipale 12y ago
  As an up-to-date addendum, Estonian president Toomas Hendrik Ilves just says in The Times that "Nato ‘must respond to Russian cyber assault’" Estonians definitely worry about this. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4400661.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article44006...
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- krick 12y ago
  You mean "some mass-media claims people in Baltics disagree with that". I don't really want to interfere with all that information war of yours, but as a Baltic citizen I feel almost offended by generalizations like that. Most people I know (including myself) would strongly claim this is bullshit, and have ironically-scornful attitude towards journalists and politicians spreading all that hysteria you are referring to as "the sources". Of course here are people, who feel otherwise, but I have ironically-scornful attitude towards them as well.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    There are at least enough Estonians who agree to elect a president who clearly does see a potential Russian threat. Of course there are Baltic citizens who are not worried by Russia. There are hundreds of thousands of Baltic citizens who are ethnic Russians and do not want to be anything else, after all. And most people they know will be similar to themselves of course, because people on both sides of this ethnic divide live in ethnic bubbles. (Yes, again a generalization that does not apply to each and every person.) But I would claim that a majority of Baltic citizens, particularly people of ethnically Baltic origin, are worried about Russia (and ethnic Russian minorities are not). At least that's what the election results look like.
    - krick 12y ago
      What I'm gonna say is pretty harsh, but, you see, for a long time (almost as long, as I remember myself at all) I have a feeling that election results don't matter. Not because "majority makes a wrong choice", no. There's just no choice. Either you go in politics yourself or you say "fuck them" and try to make living being affected by all these guys on TV as less as possible. No difference what they say. What they will do when elected is of no use anyway. Where I live (Latvia) I remember 1 somewhat useful president and 0 useful premier ministers. For me they are just like weather or something: they are just there, I don't really pray God to protect me from bad weather, I build a house that will. In fact, I've seen politicians who are making their image as pro-russian and ultra-anti-russian perfectly hanging out "after work" together, so I don't believe in their play a tiniest bit. Nor do all the rational people I know, of both russian and latvian origin. It's kinda obvious that this theater is oriented towards not-so-educated aggressive minorities in order to gather votes. Normal people just don't care. In fact, we don't care so much that jokes about "wish these effing russians would leave Latvia already!" are perfectly fine amongst our russian friends (which actually surprised me at first, because some 15 years ago people were a bit more radical here). I'm just tired of all this "latvian/russian" thing, I don't really understand what "nationality" or "origin" is anyways. The only "international matter"-thing that bothers me where I live is NATO-soldiers playing war on one of our polygons: you cannot imagine how much noise these bastards make! Of course I don't really know how things are in Estonia as I don't live there all the time, but impression I've got from visiting and communicating with people who do live there isn't really much worse.
flixic 12y ago
As a citizen of Lithuania, I disagree. You can feel destabilization efforts here.
fleetfox 12y ago
And you would know.