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I still don't understand how does Bitcoin present opportunity and potential when average consumers do not want it. It excels for things like buying drugs, so fo

by Mahn 12y ago

I still don't understand how does Bitcoin present opportunity and potential when average consumers do not want it. It excels for things like buying drugs, so for that use case alone it will stay, but other than that, even with companies like Coinbase or Circle providing infrastructure to ease the process there's just no obvious advantage to consumers. It really seems like a solution in search of a problem.

aboutus 12y ago
Only someone who completely trusts their government and centralized financial institutions would say that.
- sanswork 12y ago
  I don't have to trust everything they do to know that what they are doing works pretty well for me in almost all of my daily uses.
ArekDymalski 12y ago
There are several reasons for (s)low adoption among regular consumers: 1. It's still new and niche, many people haven't heard about it. 2. Those who heard about bitcoin in mainstream media had a chance to read both praise and scary coverage (black market, hacking, Mt Gox loses etc) 3. Bitcoin companies aren't that good in presenting themselves in terms of benefits for the layman. We should accept the fact that bitcoin is still on the beginning of it's journey through Gartner's hype cycle.Somewhere around the peak of inflated expectations I guess.
- sanswork 12y ago
  How long would you say the bitcoin community can continue to shout out early days before its not actually true? 2014 was going to be the year of Bitcoin. It was on the news regularly, new companies sprouted up that made it pretty easy for a lot of people to get bitcoin if they want it, plenty of merchants started accepting it and instead of taking off it's done the opposite. We're a quarter of the way through 2015 and despite a few major announcements there is no apparent sign of any change in the public perception. The community seems content to talk about how long email or the internet took to become common while at the same time ignoring the fact that the internet has vastly decreased the amount of time it takes for new technologies and ideas to spread. At what point going forward of no growth would you admit it has peaked?
  - borgia 12y ago
    >At what point going forward of no growth would you admit it has peaked? I don't think you're going to get such an admission from the average, invested, Bitcoin enthusiast any time soon. You're entirely correct in your post here. 2014 was meant to be "the" year for Bitcoin and it was an absolute flop. Nothing came from it. There seems to be this overall naive belief of "if you build it, they will come" while "it" has no clear value to anyone beyond those who want to carry out illegal transactions. The "why" "they" will come to it seems to be ever expanding as enthusiasts grasp in hope that someday the currency they're using as an investment instrument will see wider adoption and make them money for their patience and continued public praise of it. Bitcoin seems to have become a matter of faith more than anything else. If you truly believe you'll go to Bitcoin heaven. Ignore those who question it as they hath no clue.
  - CyberDildonics 12y ago
    How fast does it have to be for you? It was only in the last year that there were even multiple viable places to buy btc in the US. Sentiments like this are akin to people looking at the internet in the days of prodigy and saying 'I can send a letter and get sports scores from the newspaper, the internet is overhyped' 20 years later it is still a transformative force in people's lives that continues to change and evolve.
    - sanswork 12y ago
      >How fast does it have to be for you? Fast enough to show progress. >It was only in the last year that there were even multiple viable places to buy btc in the US. Coinbase has been around since 2012, and now we've had a few choices even beyond them for over a year and they still haven't made a difference. Don't you ever wonder why Coinbase and Bitpay are so adamant about not releasing real figures for anything? Coinbase releases number of wallets which is a worthless vanity metric since you can have multiple wallets and it tells us nothing of use. Bitpay released tons of details on last Bitcoin Black Friday and this year their only statement was that its not all about the numbers. More recently they've cancelled their sponsorship of the Bitcoin Bowl early. You're replying to a comment where I point out the problem with comparing bitcoin to the early internet by comparing it to the early internet. The difference between then and now is the level of improvement and the inability for the existing system to match the improvements of the new one. The internet is a huge improvement over sending a letter and getting sports scores. Massive, unquestionable. Bitcoin isn't a huge improvement over the traditional banking system(even for the unbanked).
- Mahn 12y ago
  The most important question, though, is not "why haven't regular consumers realized the benefits of bitcoin yet", but rather, "what are the benefits of bitcoin that will make regular consumers adopt it". And I just never see an obvious answer or argument to that latter question.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Why do regular consumers need to adopt it for it to be a successful technology?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - sanswork 12y ago
      Because institutional users are far more likely to want to build on something they can have some control over.
      - waterlesscloud 12y ago
        Institutional users aren't regular consumers, but institutional users are more likely to benefit (in the short term at least) from the programmable money aspects.
        sanswork 12y ago
        That is my point though. Institutional users may be more likely to benefit from that but they aren't going to want to give up control. So that leaves only regular users as a driving force behind it. There is a reason IBM, UBS, etc are building blockchain research centres and not just throwing their weight behind bitcoin itself.
zanny 12y ago
Lower prices (but that requires complete adoption or significant enough adoption vendors want to stop supporting credit card companies and thus increasing their prices) and the ability to transact with anyone, anywhere, anytime.
- sanswork 12y ago
  One of the problems with the price angle here is thinking that credit card companies can't compete on price or are at the minimum amount they can charge profitably. Visa has a net profit margin of like 50%. They could even restructure to require banks pay them a chunk of interest payments and offer merchants 0% fees if they wanted.
CyberDildonics 12y ago
Is massive credit card fraud not a problem? It is a problem for most people, and if not for you, then certainly for the businesses losing 3% to credit transactions on top of all the fraudulent orders. What about remittances that cost already poor people enormous amounts of money? What about the more core issue of being in charge of your own money? People in Venezuela, Argentina, Russia, China and Cyprus might have something to say for being able to choose what money they use. What about accepting payments without relying on credit card companies and middle men like Square and Paypal? But really when you say 'consumers don't want it', what is that based on and have you ever used bitcoin yourself? It is so simple and easy I buy everything online with it that I can and it's a breath of fresh air.
- sanswork 12y ago
  >Is massive credit card fraud not a problem? Not for me as a consumer. If I lose my card I'm covered if someone steals my details and makes a charge I'm covered. As a consumer I don't care about the business. As a business I can price in fraud easily. >What about remittances that cost already poor people enormous amounts of money? The expensive part of remittances isn't moving money between countries and that is the only part that bitcoin makes cheaper. The expensive part is 1) Complying with regulations(ignoring this is how most bitcoin remittance services are currently so cheap) and 2) Having people everywhere that the receiver can go and get local currency from(Bitcoin companies are currently using 3rd party services to avoid paying for this but those services aren't going to fund them forever). The other side to 2 is people saying that they can use things like local bitcoins. The issue there is with success becomes an oversupply locally of people looking to sell their bitcoins which leads to a reduced price for it which adds cost to the sender to get the receiver the same amount. >What about accepting payments without relying on credit card companies and middle men like Square and Paypal? This is general a pain in the ass which is why companies like Bitpay and Coinbase are so popular with almost every merchant using one or the other. >But really when you say 'consumers don't want it', what is that based on and have you ever used bitcoin yourself? It is so simple and easy I buy everything online with it that I can and it's a breath of fresh air. Based on the fact that it hasn't been secret now for years, has been easy for people in a few countries to buy for years and the public is still very meh about it if not aggressively opposed to it. I've used bitcoin myself quite a bit. It is easy to use to make a payment but I wouldn't say my credit cards are any more difficult. However it isn't easy in general. I have to first figure out how to securely store it, then I have to worry about having it stolen since I am at a complete loss if that happens, and I have to find a way to buy it which for me not being American is still a pretty huge pain in the ass. Once that's done and I'm made my purchase I now need to hope that the company doesn't make a mistake and lose my order or screw up in processing since I have no way easy way to make them resolve a problem.

by Mahn 12y ago

aboutus 12y ago

Only someone who completely trusts their government and centralized financial institutions would say that.

sanswork 12y ago
I don't have to trust everything they do to know that what they are doing works pretty well for me in almost all of my daily uses.

ArekDymalski 12y ago

There are several reasons for (s)low adoption among regular consumers: 1. It's still new and niche, many people haven't heard about it. 2. Those who heard about bitcoin in mainstream media had a chance to read both praise and scary coverage (black market, hacking, Mt Gox loses etc) 3. Bitcoin companies aren't that good in presenting themselves in terms of benefits for the layman. We should accept the fact that bitcoin is still on the beginning of it's journey through Gartner's hype cycle.Somewhere around the peak of inflated expectations I guess.

sanswork 12y ago
How long would you say the bitcoin community can continue to shout out early days before its not actually true? 2014 was going to be the year of Bitcoin. It was on the news regularly, new companies sprouted up that made it pretty easy for a lot of people to get bitcoin if they want it, plenty of merchants started accepting it and instead of taking off it's done the opposite. We're a quarter of the way through 2015 and despite a few major announcements there is no apparent sign of any change in the public perception. The community seems content to talk about how long email or the internet took to become common while at the same time ignoring the fact that the internet has vastly decreased the amount of time it takes for new technologies and ideas to spread. At what point going forward of no growth would you admit it has peaked?
- borgia 12y ago
  >At what point going forward of no growth would you admit it has peaked? I don't think you're going to get such an admission from the average, invested, Bitcoin enthusiast any time soon. You're entirely correct in your post here. 2014 was meant to be "the" year for Bitcoin and it was an absolute flop. Nothing came from it. There seems to be this overall naive belief of "if you build it, they will come" while "it" has no clear value to anyone beyond those who want to carry out illegal transactions. The "why" "they" will come to it seems to be ever expanding as enthusiasts grasp in hope that someday the currency they're using as an investment instrument will see wider adoption and make them money for their patience and continued public praise of it. Bitcoin seems to have become a matter of faith more than anything else. If you truly believe you'll go to Bitcoin heaven. Ignore those who question it as they hath no clue.
- CyberDildonics 12y ago
  How fast does it have to be for you? It was only in the last year that there were even multiple viable places to buy btc in the US. Sentiments like this are akin to people looking at the internet in the days of prodigy and saying 'I can send a letter and get sports scores from the newspaper, the internet is overhyped' 20 years later it is still a transformative force in people's lives that continues to change and evolve.
  - sanswork 12y ago
    >How fast does it have to be for you? Fast enough to show progress. >It was only in the last year that there were even multiple viable places to buy btc in the US. Coinbase has been around since 2012, and now we've had a few choices even beyond them for over a year and they still haven't made a difference. Don't you ever wonder why Coinbase and Bitpay are so adamant about not releasing real figures for anything? Coinbase releases number of wallets which is a worthless vanity metric since you can have multiple wallets and it tells us nothing of use. Bitpay released tons of details on last Bitcoin Black Friday and this year their only statement was that its not all about the numbers. More recently they've cancelled their sponsorship of the Bitcoin Bowl early. You're replying to a comment where I point out the problem with comparing bitcoin to the early internet by comparing it to the early internet. The difference between then and now is the level of improvement and the inability for the existing system to match the improvements of the new one. The internet is a huge improvement over sending a letter and getting sports scores. Massive, unquestionable. Bitcoin isn't a huge improvement over the traditional banking system(even for the unbanked).
Mahn 12y ago
The most important question, though, is not "why haven't regular consumers realized the benefits of bitcoin yet", but rather, "what are the benefits of bitcoin that will make regular consumers adopt it". And I just never see an obvious answer or argument to that latter question.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Why do regular consumers need to adopt it for it to be a successful technology?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - sanswork 12y ago
    Because institutional users are far more likely to want to build on something they can have some control over.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      Institutional users aren't regular consumers, but institutional users are more likely to benefit (in the short term at least) from the programmable money aspects.
      - sanswork 12y ago
        That is my point though. Institutional users may be more likely to benefit from that but they aren't going to want to give up control. So that leaves only regular users as a driving force behind it. There is a reason IBM, UBS, etc are building blockchain research centres and not just throwing their weight behind bitcoin itself.

zanny 12y ago

Lower prices (but that requires complete adoption or significant enough adoption vendors want to stop supporting credit card companies and thus increasing their prices) and the ability to transact with anyone, anywhere, anytime.

sanswork 12y ago
One of the problems with the price angle here is thinking that credit card companies can't compete on price or are at the minimum amount they can charge profitably. Visa has a net profit margin of like 50%. They could even restructure to require banks pay them a chunk of interest payments and offer merchants 0% fees if they wanted.

CyberDildonics 12y ago

Is massive credit card fraud not a problem? It is a problem for most people, and if not for you, then certainly for the businesses losing 3% to credit transactions on top of all the fraudulent orders. What about remittances that cost already poor people enormous amounts of money? What about the more core issue of being in charge of your own money? People in Venezuela, Argentina, Russia, China and Cyprus might have something to say for being able to choose what money they use. What about accepting payments without relying on credit card companies and middle men like Square and Paypal? But really when you say 'consumers don't want it', what is that based on and have you ever used bitcoin yourself? It is so simple and easy I buy everything online with it that I can and it's a breath of fresh air.

sanswork 12y ago
>Is massive credit card fraud not a problem? Not for me as a consumer. If I lose my card I'm covered if someone steals my details and makes a charge I'm covered. As a consumer I don't care about the business. As a business I can price in fraud easily. >What about remittances that cost already poor people enormous amounts of money? The expensive part of remittances isn't moving money between countries and that is the only part that bitcoin makes cheaper. The expensive part is 1) Complying with regulations(ignoring this is how most bitcoin remittance services are currently so cheap) and 2) Having people everywhere that the receiver can go and get local currency from(Bitcoin companies are currently using 3rd party services to avoid paying for this but those services aren't going to fund them forever). The other side to 2 is people saying that they can use things like local bitcoins. The issue there is with success becomes an oversupply locally of people looking to sell their bitcoins which leads to a reduced price for it which adds cost to the sender to get the receiver the same amount. >What about accepting payments without relying on credit card companies and middle men like Square and Paypal? This is general a pain in the ass which is why companies like Bitpay and Coinbase are so popular with almost every merchant using one or the other. >But really when you say 'consumers don't want it', what is that based on and have you ever used bitcoin yourself? It is so simple and easy I buy everything online with it that I can and it's a breath of fresh air. Based on the fact that it hasn't been secret now for years, has been easy for people in a few countries to buy for years and the public is still very meh about it if not aggressively opposed to it. I've used bitcoin myself quite a bit. It is easy to use to make a payment but I wouldn't say my credit cards are any more difficult. However it isn't easy in general. I have to first figure out how to securely store it, then I have to worry about having it stolen since I am at a complete loss if that happens, and I have to find a way to buy it which for me not being American is still a pretty huge pain in the ass. Once that's done and I'm made my purchase I now need to hope that the company doesn't make a mistake and lose my order or screw up in processing since I have no way easy way to make them resolve a problem.