7 ms·

Estonia's e-residency program expands abroad

113 points by Sami_Lehtinen 12y ago

raverbashing 12y ago
Can someone fix the title? It should be residency (like in the website)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
joelrunyon 12y ago
Does anyone know what obligations the e-residency program you have to submit to?
- polymatter 12y ago
  I couldn't find any obligations. Its probably a good idea to keep your PIN secure to reduce the probability of ID fraud. As far as I can tell its a state backed digital signature and authentication system so wouldn't confer any obligations. However, there is some discussion about whether its a completely new legal status which would do things like make you liable for double taxation. Personally I find that highly unlikely, but IANAL, YMMV etc.
  - joelrunyon 12y ago
    > However, there is some discussion about whether its a completely new legal status which would do things like make you liable for double ta Yeah, that was the type of obligation I was referring to.
octaveguin 12y ago
I recently applied for an Estonian e-residency. Heres what I did: The first thing to know is that you have to physically be there to apply. I went to Estonia and applied at the local police station. I know that sounds weird but thats how you do it. In Estonia, this is where you go to renew driver's licenses and a lot of governmental things. It was relatively painless. I didn't need to make an appointment. It's just like a DMV. You take a ticket and wait. The woman behind the counter asks some questions, for your passport, biometrics (photo and finger prints) and 50 euros. You then you wait to hear a response within two weeks. An annoying part is that you have to show up again in two weeks to pick it up in person. Mine is still waiting for me in Estonia as I've not been back yet and I can't have a friend pick it up for me (it has to be me!). Be prepared to spend two weeks in Tallinn, therefore, which isn't bad as the prices are quite reasonable and the food is good.
- ProblemFactory 12y ago
  From the linked website, it seems that they expanded applications to overseas embassies a few days ago, so visiting in person might no longer be necessary. Out of curiosity, what was your motivation for applying? It seems to me that the only obvious use-case for e-residency is to run a company registered in Estonia while living elsewhere.
  - octaveguin 12y ago
    Yes it seems like it'll be easier now. Exciting really. I bet a lot of people will now take advantage of it. My motivation is eventual real residency. This just makes it easier.
    - mb_72 12y ago
      I'm not sure there is any path, now or planned for the future, for moving from e-residency to 'real residency'. Probably you've seen this information, but if not: http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/coming-to-estonia http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/coming-to...
- coretx 12y ago
  Congratulations, between now and whenever the Kremlin feels like it, a foreign entity now controls your identity and can create legally binding contracts in your name. Never forget that 70%> of the people living in Talinn are non-estonians, and mostly Russian. And gues what: They hold power over half of their parliament.
  - dijit 12y ago
    Russian is the big bad and is trying to control you! /s Estonia is not Russia, not even close, they're part of the EU and constrained by EU law. Just because people in parliment are of russian descent does not make them pro-russia either. Stop being so racist.
    - 12y ago
genesem 12y ago
Could someone expalin why this is needed? so much hustles for such thing.
- octaveguin 12y ago
  It makes it easier to start a business, open a bank account, and things like that in Estonia. That's important because it's an EU country with a reasonable tax system, stable government and an overall ease of doing business. Being part of the EU makes a lot of things easier in dealings with other countries depending on your line of work. That's the theory anyway. We'll see if it pans out. Personally, it's an important step for me in getting a real residency beyond one tied to a company that isn't my own in the EU.
- shubb 12y ago
  It's really nice to see a government backed on line identity system, backed by 2 factor authentication and real background checking.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  Estonia has little natural resources, a small population, an unstable neighbour and it is a bit at the periphery of Europe. They have invested a lot of effort into becoming strong in Internet. This is one example of those efforts. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/apr/15/estonia-ussr-shadow-internet-titan http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/apr/15/estonia-us...
coretx 12y ago
The Estonian system is incredibly insecure. Not only because of legal and procedural errors, but also because of technical issues. Some references: https://jhalderm.com/pub/papers/ivoting-ccs14.pdf https://jhalderm.com/pub/papers/ivoting-ccs14.pdf ( Lookup the ID-card part. ) http://www.wassenaar.org/ http://www.wassenaar.org/ ( Crypto is defined as a "dual use" weapon. ) The worst aspect of the estonian ID-card is simply the fact that your private key is not private, and stored in the card itself. You as a user, can not revoke or resign it. At the same time however, it holds full legal status and dominion over your identity.
- jkaljundi 12y ago
  Rather read http://estonianworld.com/security/attacks-estonias-e-voting-political-rather-technical/ http://estonianworld.com/security/attacks-estonias-e-voting-... and https://www.ria.ee/e-voting-is-too-secure/ https://www.ria.ee/e-voting-is-too-secure/
  - ottodv 12y ago
    Two sources with absolutely no pro-Estonian bias. </sarc>
Buetol 12y ago
I thought of a simple solution to the verifiability problem, what do you think ? - When voting, each voter receive a receipt with a random number assigned to his vote - All the votes are published with the random numbers alongside them - Each voter can verify that his vote was correctly saved by looking at his assigned number in the list It's not perfect but relying on a central server is far worse I think (like the paper said)
- Tomte 12y ago
  At the very least the voter would need to supply the random number. Otherwise the server can lump together several voters who voted for the same option. I don't know offhand how Debian is doing it, but they've got some mechanism like that for their ballots. Since it's been around forever I'd guess it's solid.
- aianus 12y ago
  Unfortunately this enables someone to coerce or bribe you into voting for a certain candidate, since the coercer would be able to demand to see your receipt and verify you complied. Here's a rather long but very interesting tech talk about electronic voting schemes which maintain the secret ballot property: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s
  - Buetol 12y ago
    Thanks, I looked a bit at the Helios voting system and thought it was a complicated mess but this video explains everything really well!
- coretx 12y ago
  The Estonian E-voting system is incredibly broken by design as you can see in this CCC lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os ( by J. Alex Halderman )
  - polymatter 12y ago
zura 12y ago
Interesting, would it be possible to create a Google Play Store merchant account with this? Estonia is in the list of supported countries for merchants.
zkhalique 12y ago
What is the advantage of e-residency in estonia?
- krick 12y ago
  I double that. Honestly, I expected that somebody already explained it in comments. Before reading so detailed and in-depth explanation on "how?" I would expect broad and self-selling explanation of "why?".
  - jcrawfordor 12y ago
    The program appears to be oriented towards people who regularly visit Estonia or do business with Estonians. The Estonian ID card is used for authentication to many (perhaps all) Estonian government services and some private services, so it would be inconvenient to e.g. owe taxes there and not have an Estonian e-ID.
exit 12y ago
has anyone found a translation of the application document? https://www.politsei.ee/dotAsset/204085.pdf https://www.politsei.ee/dotAsset/204085.pdf
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
kaspa130 12y ago
fyi, how to apply: 1.april Estonia opened foreign embassies where you can give paper application. But from May Estonia opens online application where you can pay by credit card. And once you got accepted then you need to physically go and collect the card from your chosen foreign embassy. everything here https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/ https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/ Why one should? yes, access to EU market, access to good services (google, paypal, soon stripe etc), access to e-banking, and generally digital signature gives hassle-free business environment (signing contracts with partners, filling e-tax declarations, administrating business on a business portal). Why Estonia is doing it - to increase its economic reach / gain more customers / PR

113 points by Sami_Lehtinen 12y ago

raverbashing 12y ago

Can someone fix the title? It should be residency (like in the website)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

joelrunyon 12y ago

Does anyone know what obligations the e-residency program you have to submit to?

polymatter 12y ago
I couldn't find any obligations. Its probably a good idea to keep your PIN secure to reduce the probability of ID fraud. As far as I can tell its a state backed digital signature and authentication system so wouldn't confer any obligations. However, there is some discussion about whether its a completely new legal status which would do things like make you liable for double taxation. Personally I find that highly unlikely, but IANAL, YMMV etc.
- joelrunyon 12y ago
  > However, there is some discussion about whether its a completely new legal status which would do things like make you liable for double ta Yeah, that was the type of obligation I was referring to.

octaveguin 12y ago

I recently applied for an Estonian e-residency. Heres what I did: The first thing to know is that you have to physically be there to apply. I went to Estonia and applied at the local police station. I know that sounds weird but thats how you do it. In Estonia, this is where you go to renew driver's licenses and a lot of governmental things. It was relatively painless. I didn't need to make an appointment. It's just like a DMV. You take a ticket and wait. The woman behind the counter asks some questions, for your passport, biometrics (photo and finger prints) and 50 euros. You then you wait to hear a response within two weeks. An annoying part is that you have to show up again in two weeks to pick it up in person. Mine is still waiting for me in Estonia as I've not been back yet and I can't have a friend pick it up for me (it has to be me!). Be prepared to spend two weeks in Tallinn, therefore, which isn't bad as the prices are quite reasonable and the food is good.

ProblemFactory 12y ago
From the linked website, it seems that they expanded applications to overseas embassies a few days ago, so visiting in person might no longer be necessary. Out of curiosity, what was your motivation for applying? It seems to me that the only obvious use-case for e-residency is to run a company registered in Estonia while living elsewhere.
- octaveguin 12y ago
  Yes it seems like it'll be easier now. Exciting really. I bet a lot of people will now take advantage of it. My motivation is eventual real residency. This just makes it easier.
  - mb_72 12y ago
    I'm not sure there is any path, now or planned for the future, for moving from e-residency to 'real residency'. Probably you've seen this information, but if not: http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/coming-to-estonia http://www.investinestonia.com/en/investment-guide/coming-to...
coretx 12y ago
Congratulations, between now and whenever the Kremlin feels like it, a foreign entity now controls your identity and can create legally binding contracts in your name. Never forget that 70%> of the people living in Talinn are non-estonians, and mostly Russian. And gues what: They hold power over half of their parliament.
- dijit 12y ago
  Russian is the big bad and is trying to control you! /s Estonia is not Russia, not even close, they're part of the EU and constrained by EU law. Just because people in parliment are of russian descent does not make them pro-russia either. Stop being so racist.
  - 12y ago

genesem 12y ago

Could someone expalin why this is needed? so much hustles for such thing.

octaveguin 12y ago
It makes it easier to start a business, open a bank account, and things like that in Estonia. That's important because it's an EU country with a reasonable tax system, stable government and an overall ease of doing business. Being part of the EU makes a lot of things easier in dealings with other countries depending on your line of work. That's the theory anyway. We'll see if it pans out. Personally, it's an important step for me in getting a real residency beyond one tied to a company that isn't my own in the EU.
shubb 12y ago
It's really nice to see a government backed on line identity system, backed by 2 factor authentication and real background checking.
ptaipale 12y ago
Estonia has little natural resources, a small population, an unstable neighbour and it is a bit at the periphery of Europe. They have invested a lot of effort into becoming strong in Internet. This is one example of those efforts. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/apr/15/estonia-ussr-shadow-internet-titan http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/apr/15/estonia-us...

coretx 12y ago

The Estonian system is incredibly insecure. Not only because of legal and procedural errors, but also because of technical issues. Some references: https://jhalderm.com/pub/papers/ivoting-ccs14.pdf https://jhalderm.com/pub/papers/ivoting-ccs14.pdf ( Lookup the ID-card part. ) http://www.wassenaar.org/ http://www.wassenaar.org/ ( Crypto is defined as a "dual use" weapon. ) The worst aspect of the estonian ID-card is simply the fact that your private key is not private, and stored in the card itself. You as a user, can not revoke or resign it. At the same time however, it holds full legal status and dominion over your identity.

jkaljundi 12y ago
Rather read http://estonianworld.com/security/attacks-estonias-e-voting-political-rather-technical/ http://estonianworld.com/security/attacks-estonias-e-voting-... and https://www.ria.ee/e-voting-is-too-secure/ https://www.ria.ee/e-voting-is-too-secure/
- ottodv 12y ago
  Two sources with absolutely no pro-Estonian bias. </sarc>

Buetol 12y ago

I thought of a simple solution to the verifiability problem, what do you think ? - When voting, each voter receive a receipt with a random number assigned to his vote - All the votes are published with the random numbers alongside them - Each voter can verify that his vote was correctly saved by looking at his assigned number in the list It's not perfect but relying on a central server is far worse I think (like the paper said)

Tomte 12y ago
At the very least the voter would need to supply the random number. Otherwise the server can lump together several voters who voted for the same option. I don't know offhand how Debian is doing it, but they've got some mechanism like that for their ballots. Since it's been around forever I'd guess it's solid.
aianus 12y ago
Unfortunately this enables someone to coerce or bribe you into voting for a certain candidate, since the coercer would be able to demand to see your receipt and verify you complied. Here's a rather long but very interesting tech talk about electronic voting schemes which maintain the secret ballot property: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDnShu5V99s
- Buetol 12y ago
  Thanks, I looked a bit at the Helios voting system and thought it was a complicated mess but this video explains everything really well!
coretx 12y ago
The Estonian E-voting system is incredibly broken by design as you can see in this CCC lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY_pHvhE4os ( by J. Alex Halderman )
- polymatter 12y ago

zura 12y ago

Interesting, would it be possible to create a Google Play Store merchant account with this? Estonia is in the list of supported countries for merchants.

zkhalique 12y ago

What is the advantage of e-residency in estonia?

krick 12y ago
I double that. Honestly, I expected that somebody already explained it in comments. Before reading so detailed and in-depth explanation on "how?" I would expect broad and self-selling explanation of "why?".
- jcrawfordor 12y ago
  The program appears to be oriented towards people who regularly visit Estonia or do business with Estonians. The Estonian ID card is used for authentication to many (perhaps all) Estonian government services and some private services, so it would be inconvenient to e.g. owe taxes there and not have an Estonian e-ID.

exit 12y ago

has anyone found a translation of the application document? https://www.politsei.ee/dotAsset/204085.pdf https://www.politsei.ee/dotAsset/204085.pdf

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

kaspa130 12y ago

fyi, how to apply: 1.april Estonia opened foreign embassies where you can give paper application. But from May Estonia opens online application where you can pay by credit card. And once you got accepted then you need to physically go and collect the card from your chosen foreign embassy. everything here https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/ https://e-estonia.com/e-residents/about/ Why one should? yes, access to EU market, access to good services (google, paypal, soon stripe etc), access to e-banking, and generally digital signature gives hassle-free business environment (signing contracts with partners, filling e-tax declarations, administrating business on a business portal). Why Estonia is doing it - to increase its economic reach / gain more customers / PR