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"In a worst-case scenario for the high-tech industry, the ruling could invalidate many existing software patents or at least make them more difficult to defend

"In a worst-case scenario for the high-tech industry, the ruling could invalidate many existing software patents or at least make them more difficult to defend in lawsuits. And it could make such patents harder to obtain in the future because software is generally patented as a process for doing something rather than as a physical invention." I think that might be the best case scenario.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Agreed...it all makes sense when you see the quote a few lines down from that: "The software industry would lose an important incentive to innovate if the government ceased issuing software patents," warned patent attorney James Carmichael, a former judge on the Patent Office board of appeals.
- some1else 17y ago
  I wonder, If "the industry" spent the resources allocated for software patents on additional R&D, could consumers even handle all the innovation? Besides, when was being the market leader ever an incentive for companies :-D There was a cool talk on the problems with software patents by D. Ravicher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A I just can't imagine something like an Augmented Reality iPhone app being patented by a restrictive extortionate company. It's basically the Terminator vision on a modern handheld device. But then again, look at all the ridiculous applications http://www.google.com/patents?q=augmented+reality+phone+camera&btnG=Search+Patents http://www.google.com/patents?q=augmented+reality+phone+came...
- wsprague 17y ago
  I would like to see this supported (or not, methinks) by empirical evidence. A priori arguments without evidence aren't worth a damn, in my estimation.
alain94040 17y ago
I agree that the pendulum today is too strongly on the side of patent trolls. But have you seriously thought about what a world without patents would look like? Actually, you can. Visit China. On Monday, the boss of a factory will give you a tour and shows you how they manufacture the iPod case exclusively for Apple. The next day, they offer you to manufacture the exact same design, just for you, for very cheap. IP? What IP? Personally, I'm hoping for a middle ground. Not all patents are bad, but too many stupid patents is an abuse of the system. (before you mod into oblivion, let me state that I have standing to discuss this issue, having been sued for patent infringment myself - I know the pain)
- IsaacSchlueter 17y ago
  Is that really so bad, though? I know that I could get a knock-off of an iPod. But my iPod has guaranteed support from Apple, and it gives me a good feeling to know that I have the "real thing", and not a "fake". For that matter, I could also get a Zune, but I have standards. ;) If your business model could be so easily undercut by competition, you're Doing It Wrong. People pay more for perceived status and soft values. And the people who are looking for knockoffs were probably never going to be your customers in the first place. Validity of software patents goes on trial today at Supreme Court. I'm hoping for the death penalty.
- greendestiny 17y ago
  You can still have copyright protection without patents. Besides your example is specifically a physical device which isn't the kind of patent being talked about.
- gacek 17y ago
  You miss the point. A specific case design is something completely different than patenting 'ways that stuff can be done'. I really hope the EU does not introduce software patents. This is just the thing to stiffle innovation.
- bradgessler 17y ago
  The idea behind patents was to encourage innovation by guaranteeing certain rights to the patent holder; unfortunately, software patents have probably hurt innovation more than it has helped out.
  - kiba 17y ago
    Nobody brother to read Against Intellectual Monopoly then. http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.ht... People should really seriously consider if a whole system is entirely flawed sometime or it may never do anything for innovation anyway. As for me, the question is already decided. As an anarchist, I opposed patents on the ground that it is a property right violation. The innovation questions doesn't matter to me.
grellas 17y ago
Oral argument was held today - tough day for the patent applicant, with much skepticism expressed by the justices toward the idea that business methods (and, of course, any software that might implement them) should be loosely patentable: Justice Stevens: "None of our cases has ever approved a rule such as you advocate"; Justice Breyer: applicant is arguing "anything that helps any businessman succeed is patentable"; Justice Scalia: patents are given to inventions that are manufactured or produced by workmen, "not someone who writes a book about how to win friends and influence people." Not good portends for a favorable decision for the applicant. On the other hand, several justices overtly questioned the highly restrictive test adopted by the lower court that would essentially gut many business method patents. Looks like this could go all sorts of directions but not likely to any extreme.
- arebop 17y ago
  The transcript is available from http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/08-964.pdf http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transc... for those who are interested in more.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago

Agreed...it all makes sense when you see the quote a few lines down from that: "The software industry would lose an important incentive to innovate if the government ceased issuing software patents," warned patent attorney James Carmichael, a former judge on the Patent Office board of appeals.

some1else 17y ago
I wonder, If "the industry" spent the resources allocated for software patents on additional R&D, could consumers even handle all the innovation? Besides, when was being the market leader ever an incentive for companies :-D There was a cool talk on the problems with software patents by D. Ravicher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A I just can't imagine something like an Augmented Reality iPhone app being patented by a restrictive extortionate company. It's basically the Terminator vision on a modern handheld device. But then again, look at all the ridiculous applications http://www.google.com/patents?q=augmented+reality+phone+camera&btnG=Search+Patents http://www.google.com/patents?q=augmented+reality+phone+came...
wsprague 17y ago
I would like to see this supported (or not, methinks) by empirical evidence. A priori arguments without evidence aren't worth a damn, in my estimation.

alain94040 17y ago

I agree that the pendulum today is too strongly on the side of patent trolls. But have you seriously thought about what a world without patents would look like? Actually, you can. Visit China. On Monday, the boss of a factory will give you a tour and shows you how they manufacture the iPod case exclusively for Apple. The next day, they offer you to manufacture the exact same design, just for you, for very cheap. IP? What IP? Personally, I'm hoping for a middle ground. Not all patents are bad, but too many stupid patents is an abuse of the system. (before you mod into oblivion, let me state that I have standing to discuss this issue, having been sued for patent infringment myself - I know the pain)

IsaacSchlueter 17y ago
Is that really so bad, though? I know that I could get a knock-off of an iPod. But my iPod has guaranteed support from Apple, and it gives me a good feeling to know that I have the "real thing", and not a "fake". For that matter, I could also get a Zune, but I have standards. ;) If your business model could be so easily undercut by competition, you're Doing It Wrong. People pay more for perceived status and soft values. And the people who are looking for knockoffs were probably never going to be your customers in the first place. Validity of software patents goes on trial today at Supreme Court. I'm hoping for the death penalty.
greendestiny 17y ago
You can still have copyright protection without patents. Besides your example is specifically a physical device which isn't the kind of patent being talked about.
gacek 17y ago
You miss the point. A specific case design is something completely different than patenting 'ways that stuff can be done'. I really hope the EU does not introduce software patents. This is just the thing to stiffle innovation.
bradgessler 17y ago
The idea behind patents was to encourage innovation by guaranteeing certain rights to the patent holder; unfortunately, software patents have probably hurt innovation more than it has helped out.
- kiba 17y ago
  Nobody brother to read Against Intellectual Monopoly then. http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.ht... People should really seriously consider if a whole system is entirely flawed sometime or it may never do anything for innovation anyway. As for me, the question is already decided. As an anarchist, I opposed patents on the ground that it is a property right violation. The innovation questions doesn't matter to me.

grellas 17y ago

Oral argument was held today - tough day for the patent applicant, with much skepticism expressed by the justices toward the idea that business methods (and, of course, any software that might implement them) should be loosely patentable: Justice Stevens: "None of our cases has ever approved a rule such as you advocate"; Justice Breyer: applicant is arguing "anything that helps any businessman succeed is patentable"; Justice Scalia: patents are given to inventions that are manufactured or produced by workmen, "not someone who writes a book about how to win friends and influence people." Not good portends for a favorable decision for the applicant. On the other hand, several justices overtly questioned the highly restrictive test adopted by the lower court that would essentially gut many business method patents. Looks like this could go all sorts of directions but not likely to any extreme.

arebop 17y ago
The transcript is available from http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/08-964.pdf http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transc... for those who are interested in more.