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I somewhat disagree with the consensus. This, like Netflix moving their earnings date, is a big middle finger to the people who provide liquidity in the company

I somewhat disagree with the consensus. This, like Netflix moving their earnings date, is a big middle finger to the people who provide liquidity in the company's stock. Musk feigns intolerance and disinterest in the games of the market. But more than any other CEO, he baits and stokes it. Several times in the last year, as TSLA stock takes a beating, he drops a tweet. He did it on October 1st with the "Model D" tweet. It creates a boomlet until the announcement, then a crash back down to reality. It creates a bag-holding moment for retail investors. It's not unreasonable to think that the CEO should not be meddling with the public market. I go even further and say: the investors and traders of TSLA have significantly helped the company succeed. Why does he keep kicking them in the teeth?

prodigal_erik 12y ago
Investors evaluate the company's products for themselves, and buy-and-hold to route society's resources appropriately. Traders prey on investors, forcing them to waste effort on behaving less predictably so their transactions aren't front-run.
- encoderer 12y ago
  > Traders prey on investors, forcing them to waste effort on behaving less predictably so their transactions aren't front-run. It's not your fault, but I think you've just been spun by the Michael Lewis Flashboys hype machine here. Frontrunning isn't really a problem. Did you know the majority of orders are price IMPROVED, in part due to the activities of high frequency traders? Meaning, you place an order to buy at $10 and it's filled at $9.995 because some HFT wanted your order flow so they improve the best quote by 1/2 penny to get to fill your order. Moreover, if you're a buy-and-hold investor, even if you were "front run" you would never even know nor miss the 1/2 penny per share or whatever. Respectfully, this is just a subject that's complicated and it to grok it you need to give it some real thought.
  - prodigal_erik 12y ago
    Where did they get them? If it's their fault equities were not available at $9.995 from anyone else, they haven't provided any liquidity. I don't believe hold times in milliseconds actually facilitate trades that would not have happened anyway.
    - encoderer 12y ago
      You're so hung-up on frontrunning. I challenge you to find a retail investor actually harmed by frontrunning. Even in Flashboys the protagonist was a big trader trying to move 10,000 shares. It simply has no affect on retail traders. Let me just walk you through how an order is filled: Your brokerage sends the order to one or many of the firms that specialize as so-called "liquidity providers." These companies publish quotes for all securities, both a bid and ask. These companies make money by knowing what other people are doing -- capturing order flow -- so they try to publish the lowest quote possible in order to get the order because by law the brokerage must fill the order at the "national best bid/offer". This results in price improvement for the customer over half the time. This improvement doesn't get squeezed from another counter-party as I think you're thinking, and actually both counter-parties are likely to be price-improved. The improvement comes from smaller bid/ask spreads. Here's what I know for certain: With high frequency trading tech comes more liquidity, with lower commissions, faster trade execution, and a small bid/ask spread. There are more penny-wide markets than ever before. Look, I'm just a retail trader. I have no reason to shill for HFT firms. And I even love Michael Lewis. But flashboys and this whole dark pools, front-running boogeyman is just so much bs.

prodigal_erik 12y ago

Investors evaluate the company's products for themselves, and buy-and-hold to route society's resources appropriately. Traders prey on investors, forcing them to waste effort on behaving less predictably so their transactions aren't front-run.

encoderer 12y ago
> Traders prey on investors, forcing them to waste effort on behaving less predictably so their transactions aren't front-run. It's not your fault, but I think you've just been spun by the Michael Lewis Flashboys hype machine here. Frontrunning isn't really a problem. Did you know the majority of orders are price IMPROVED, in part due to the activities of high frequency traders? Meaning, you place an order to buy at $10 and it's filled at $9.995 because some HFT wanted your order flow so they improve the best quote by 1/2 penny to get to fill your order. Moreover, if you're a buy-and-hold investor, even if you were "front run" you would never even know nor miss the 1/2 penny per share or whatever. Respectfully, this is just a subject that's complicated and it to grok it you need to give it some real thought.
- prodigal_erik 12y ago
  Where did they get them? If it's their fault equities were not available at $9.995 from anyone else, they haven't provided any liquidity. I don't believe hold times in milliseconds actually facilitate trades that would not have happened anyway.
  - encoderer 12y ago
    You're so hung-up on frontrunning. I challenge you to find a retail investor actually harmed by frontrunning. Even in Flashboys the protagonist was a big trader trying to move 10,000 shares. It simply has no affect on retail traders. Let me just walk you through how an order is filled: Your brokerage sends the order to one or many of the firms that specialize as so-called "liquidity providers." These companies publish quotes for all securities, both a bid and ask. These companies make money by knowing what other people are doing -- capturing order flow -- so they try to publish the lowest quote possible in order to get the order because by law the brokerage must fill the order at the "national best bid/offer". This results in price improvement for the customer over half the time. This improvement doesn't get squeezed from another counter-party as I think you're thinking, and actually both counter-parties are likely to be price-improved. The improvement comes from smaller bid/ask spreads. Here's what I know for certain: With high frequency trading tech comes more liquidity, with lower commissions, faster trade execution, and a small bid/ask spread. There are more penny-wide markets than ever before. Look, I'm just a retail trader. I have no reason to shill for HFT firms. And I even love Michael Lewis. But flashboys and this whole dark pools, front-running boogeyman is just so much bs.