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I liked that last phrase, so I generalize it: Remember: you're the Xer -- do the X you want, not the X you think someone wants you to do.

Silhouette 12y ago
Let's try that principle in a few other contexts. "Remember, you're the politician. Pass the laws you want, not the laws you think the electorate want you to pass." "Remember, you're the soldier. Fight the wars you want, not the wars you think your country's leadership want you to fight." "Remember, you're the fireman. Fight the fires you want, not the fires you think the person who called 911 wants you to fight." The idea that you should do whatever you want regardless of the team or management you work with looks pretty dumb when you apply it to situations that actually matter. The world would not be a better place if everyone decided to just assume they're right all the time and ignore everyone else.
- iamcurious 12y ago
  The idea that you should do whatever you want regardless of the team or management you work with looks pretty dumb when you apply it to situations that actually matter. I see that principle as putting the responsibility back into the shoulders of the person carrying the action. I see it as a way of ignoring the "just following orders excuse".[1][2] So no, I don't think it looks pretty dumb, I think it is as something to consider seriously. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment Edit: Added footnotes
  - Silhouette 12y ago
    I see it as a way of ignoring the "just following orders excuse". You're going to Godwin the thread? Really? If you do want to make that argument, please consider firstly that the Nuremberg defence failed, in that particular context, because it was considered so obviously inappropriate for the defendants to act as they did just because they were ordered to do so that they should have known better and refused to comply. Secondly, please also consider that the Nuremberg verdicts stand in stark contrast to normal military discipline in basically every armed service in the world, where refusing to follow a lawful order from a superior officer is grounds for a court martial and potentially a severe punishment. In particular, the current situation recognised by the International Criminal Court and the 100+ signatory states to the Rome Statute lists only genocide and crimes against humanity as manifestly unlawful, potentially admitting the superior orders principle as a defence in other cases where the defendant believed they were complying with a lawful order. This is even noted in one of the links you gave yourself. In any case, I would hope we all agree that being instructed to implement a software safeguard against criminal production of counterfeit currency is not on the same scale as being instructed to execute millions of innocent people in gas chambers.
- jrockway 12y ago
  There are multiple dimensions to command and authority. Let's try these: "Remember, you're the politician. Pass the laws you want, not the laws the party leaders say you should pass." "Remember, you're the soldier. Complete the mission without unnecessary collateral damage, even though you wouldn't be punished for killing civilians unnecessarily." "Remember, you're the fireman. Exercise caution the way you want, not how you've seen firefighters in movies act." Sometimes you should ignore people and pressure to do the right thing.

Silhouette 12y ago

Let's try that principle in a few other contexts. "Remember, you're the politician. Pass the laws you want, not the laws you think the electorate want you to pass." "Remember, you're the soldier. Fight the wars you want, not the wars you think your country's leadership want you to fight." "Remember, you're the fireman. Fight the fires you want, not the fires you think the person who called 911 wants you to fight." The idea that you should do whatever you want regardless of the team or management you work with looks pretty dumb when you apply it to situations that actually matter. The world would not be a better place if everyone decided to just assume they're right all the time and ignore everyone else.

iamcurious 12y ago
The idea that you should do whatever you want regardless of the team or management you work with looks pretty dumb when you apply it to situations that actually matter. I see that principle as putting the responsibility back into the shoulders of the person carrying the action. I see it as a way of ignoring the "just following orders excuse".[1][2] So no, I don't think it looks pretty dumb, I think it is as something to consider seriously. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment Edit: Added footnotes
- Silhouette 12y ago
  I see it as a way of ignoring the "just following orders excuse". You're going to Godwin the thread? Really? If you do want to make that argument, please consider firstly that the Nuremberg defence failed, in that particular context, because it was considered so obviously inappropriate for the defendants to act as they did just because they were ordered to do so that they should have known better and refused to comply. Secondly, please also consider that the Nuremberg verdicts stand in stark contrast to normal military discipline in basically every armed service in the world, where refusing to follow a lawful order from a superior officer is grounds for a court martial and potentially a severe punishment. In particular, the current situation recognised by the International Criminal Court and the 100+ signatory states to the Rome Statute lists only genocide and crimes against humanity as manifestly unlawful, potentially admitting the superior orders principle as a defence in other cases where the defendant believed they were complying with a lawful order. This is even noted in one of the links you gave yourself. In any case, I would hope we all agree that being instructed to implement a software safeguard against criminal production of counterfeit currency is not on the same scale as being instructed to execute millions of innocent people in gas chambers.
jrockway 12y ago
There are multiple dimensions to command and authority. Let's try these: "Remember, you're the politician. Pass the laws you want, not the laws the party leaders say you should pass." "Remember, you're the soldier. Complete the mission without unnecessary collateral damage, even though you wouldn't be punished for killing civilians unnecessarily." "Remember, you're the fireman. Exercise caution the way you want, not how you've seen firefighters in movies act." Sometimes you should ignore people and pressure to do the right thing.