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> I feel that this is a cultural phenomenon of seeing children as less than human, as incapable of making good choices for themselves. I teach primary school c

by adam-a 12y ago

> I feel that this is a cultural phenomenon of seeing children as less than human, as incapable of making good choices for themselves. I teach primary school children (aged 10 and 11) once a week. I think the author is mistaken and using a lot of assumptions to justify a very bigoted position. Firstly, most children are not capable of making good choices for themselves. This is essentially why we teach them, if they came out of the ground fully aware and able to rationalise there would be no need for schools. My direct experience is that some children are quite self directed and can be left to pursue their interests and work around topics in their own way. Most children however find a lack of direction quite daunting and will end up not working at all if they are not given quite clear instructions. Secondly, allowing each child to pursue their education in their own preferred mode is unreasonable because of class sizes. I have found it very difficult to support more than 5 or so children who are all doing different things, even if they are focusing on a common subject and broadly similar tasks. The only way for a teacher to reasonably teach a class of 20 to 30 or more is to give them all the same work and teach them all in more or less the same way. The author makes the mistake of assuming his teachers were stupid or mean. Whenever you find yourself assuming this about other people you should take a step back, because there are very few individuals, and certainly no broad categories of people who are actually like this.

japhyr 12y ago
> I have found it very difficult to support more than 5 or so children who are all doing different things, even if they are focusing on a common subject and broadly similar tasks. The only way for a teacher to reasonably teach a class of 20 to 30 or more is to give them all the same work and teach them all in more or less the same way. If you were taught using traditional methods where everyone was expected to do the same thing, it is difficult to figure out a different approach all by yourself. But there are some really well-established ways to run a classroom where not everyone has to do the same thing. For example, there are various models of project-based education, where everyone is working on the same topic but students are doing a number of different things around that topic. One core skill of a decent teacher is to differentiate instruction. Good teachers have been doing this for generations.
- adam-a 12y ago
  I would love to learn more about this, can you give me any pointers or links? I haven't had teacher training and I obviously only do it part time, so I'm sure a more experienced teacher might have a different view on this. I can believe that once the kids are in the mindset of following instructions they have a hard time switching to being more self-directed. I would be really interested to hear more about the schools that run these types of programs too. The difference in class sizes and staff numbers, as well as the background of the students surely impact how easy it is to run a school in this way.
  - japhyr 12y ago
    > I would love to learn more about this, can you give me any pointers or links? http://elschools.org/ http://elschools.org/ - This is the application of Outward Bound principles to education. It is not just taking students outdoors - you can do high-quality Learning Expeditions that never leave the classroom. It's the idea of taking a group farther than any one person could go on their own, by working with everyone's strengths and by building the skills and knowledge required to reach the goal. Quick example: I had a class conduct a population study of starfish at a local beach one spring. Lots of different work to focus on, allowing many students to address the variety of skills and understanding they needed to focus on. Plenty of coherence to make it easy, even fun, to manage the different work everyone was doing. > I can believe that once the kids are in the mindset of following instructions they have a hard time switching to being more self-directed. Yes. When students come into our school, many of them take 6-12 months to start taking ownership of their own work and their own learning. They've spent 8+ years being told what to do, and many have lost the ability to trust themselves to make meaningful decisions and follow through on those decisions. > I would be really interested to hear more about the schools that run these types of programs too. The difference in class sizes and staff numbers, as well as the background of the students surely impact how easy it is to run a school in this way. Class size is not as important as many think. 30+ is difficult, ~20 is quite manageable - in fact, having a diversity of skills and perspectives can be really helpful when you're doing meaningful work. You might be surprised about how the background of students affects this kind of work. Students who have had behavioral issues in traditional models can often be redirected toward meaningful work - they've been behaving poorly because they want good education, by people who are willing and able to meet them where they're at. These students are actually easier to work with in this model than students who have become overly compliant.
guard-of-terra 12y ago
"some children are quite self directed and can be left to pursue their interests and work around topics in their own way" Can you tell us why then most teachers feel they have to specifically peck this kind of children and make them "behave" (i.e. do whatever everyone is supposed to do and ignore their own sense)? You don't have to specifically be stupid or mean - it's enough if ruining other people's lives is a natural consequence of your work. You won't be loved by those affected.
- adam-a 12y ago
  I teach children programming and we make games using Scratch[0]. A lot of the time one of the kids, especially one that's getting the hang of it, will ask if they can make a different game to the one I have worksheets for and everyone else is doing. I would love for them to be able to but I know I will constantly be answering their questions and I just don't have time. I don't know if that answers your question. 0 - https://scratch.mit.edu/ https://scratch.mit.edu/
calibraxis 12y ago
The author wrote, "I do believe that teachers have the best intentions for their students, and in many cases love them. [...] They truly cared about me, I could tell. I feel that this is a cultural phenomenon of seeing children as less than human, as incapable of making good choices for themselves." Please consider citing where he was "assuming his teachers were stupid or mean" — with surrounding context. Perhaps you're latching onto the least charitable interpretation, as commonly happens when people fundamentally critique our work? I teach and manage, and solicit critique in both jobs. (The author seems to point out that both teaching and management devolve into the same thing in our society...) As for being "stupid or mean", I'm quite capable of both, which is a concern when I have institutional power. The most stupid/mean people seem to be least capable of admitting it.
- meragrin 12y ago
  How does one disrespect another without being stupid, ignorant, or mean?
- adam-a 12y ago
  The theme of the article is the author believes his teachers did not respect him. I said he therefore must believe them to be stupid or mean, since we all believe he deserved their respect. To sustain the accusation though: > ... the teachers’ own internalized oppression as working class. Teachers are not paid well, which makes them feel bound and powerless, which is communicated to the students ... Here he is implying that teachers are unhappy and take it out on their students. This is a mean trait. > The truth is that at this level of “real world”, math beyond basic arithmetic and estimation is not really useful, so any attempt to make it seem so will be disingenuous. And here he believes his teachers were "disingenuous", which is also a mean trait. He then goes on to say > I believe kids are smart; they will not be fooled so easily. which shows he believes he is more intelligent than his teachers, since they didn't think kids were smart but he knows better. He also includes asides like > they never asked what I did with my time instead of doing homework. (I wonder what they thought?) suggesting he attributes to them a lack of thoughtfulness or critical thinking. I am open to more charitable interpretations, however I think the author is overly critical and not in a very helpful way since his argument is so distanced from the practicalities of teaching. I will admit that I find the article personally a bit sharp, since I have been discovering how difficult teaching is. And of course I have been guilty of being stupid and mean in the past, as everyone has. However I don't think my response was disproportionately hostile.
Decade 12y ago
I watched a very smart 5-year-old turn into a listless and bored 6-year-old. The school system's practice of beating down initiative can take effect shockingly quickly.

by adam-a 12y ago

japhyr 12y ago

> I have found it very difficult to support more than 5 or so children who are all doing different things, even if they are focusing on a common subject and broadly similar tasks. The only way for a teacher to reasonably teach a class of 20 to 30 or more is to give them all the same work and teach them all in more or less the same way. If you were taught using traditional methods where everyone was expected to do the same thing, it is difficult to figure out a different approach all by yourself. But there are some really well-established ways to run a classroom where not everyone has to do the same thing. For example, there are various models of project-based education, where everyone is working on the same topic but students are doing a number of different things around that topic. One core skill of a decent teacher is to differentiate instruction. Good teachers have been doing this for generations.

adam-a 12y ago
I would love to learn more about this, can you give me any pointers or links? I haven't had teacher training and I obviously only do it part time, so I'm sure a more experienced teacher might have a different view on this. I can believe that once the kids are in the mindset of following instructions they have a hard time switching to being more self-directed. I would be really interested to hear more about the schools that run these types of programs too. The difference in class sizes and staff numbers, as well as the background of the students surely impact how easy it is to run a school in this way.
- japhyr 12y ago
  > I would love to learn more about this, can you give me any pointers or links? http://elschools.org/ http://elschools.org/ - This is the application of Outward Bound principles to education. It is not just taking students outdoors - you can do high-quality Learning Expeditions that never leave the classroom. It's the idea of taking a group farther than any one person could go on their own, by working with everyone's strengths and by building the skills and knowledge required to reach the goal. Quick example: I had a class conduct a population study of starfish at a local beach one spring. Lots of different work to focus on, allowing many students to address the variety of skills and understanding they needed to focus on. Plenty of coherence to make it easy, even fun, to manage the different work everyone was doing. > I can believe that once the kids are in the mindset of following instructions they have a hard time switching to being more self-directed. Yes. When students come into our school, many of them take 6-12 months to start taking ownership of their own work and their own learning. They've spent 8+ years being told what to do, and many have lost the ability to trust themselves to make meaningful decisions and follow through on those decisions. > I would be really interested to hear more about the schools that run these types of programs too. The difference in class sizes and staff numbers, as well as the background of the students surely impact how easy it is to run a school in this way. Class size is not as important as many think. 30+ is difficult, ~20 is quite manageable - in fact, having a diversity of skills and perspectives can be really helpful when you're doing meaningful work. You might be surprised about how the background of students affects this kind of work. Students who have had behavioral issues in traditional models can often be redirected toward meaningful work - they've been behaving poorly because they want good education, by people who are willing and able to meet them where they're at. These students are actually easier to work with in this model than students who have become overly compliant.

guard-of-terra 12y ago

"some children are quite self directed and can be left to pursue their interests and work around topics in their own way" Can you tell us why then most teachers feel they have to specifically peck this kind of children and make them "behave" (i.e. do whatever everyone is supposed to do and ignore their own sense)? You don't have to specifically be stupid or mean - it's enough if ruining other people's lives is a natural consequence of your work. You won't be loved by those affected.

adam-a 12y ago
I teach children programming and we make games using Scratch[0]. A lot of the time one of the kids, especially one that's getting the hang of it, will ask if they can make a different game to the one I have worksheets for and everyone else is doing. I would love for them to be able to but I know I will constantly be answering their questions and I just don't have time. I don't know if that answers your question. 0 - https://scratch.mit.edu/ https://scratch.mit.edu/

calibraxis 12y ago

The author wrote, "I do believe that teachers have the best intentions for their students, and in many cases love them. [...] They truly cared about me, I could tell. I feel that this is a cultural phenomenon of seeing children as less than human, as incapable of making good choices for themselves." Please consider citing where he was "assuming his teachers were stupid or mean" — with surrounding context. Perhaps you're latching onto the least charitable interpretation, as commonly happens when people fundamentally critique our work? I teach and manage, and solicit critique in both jobs. (The author seems to point out that both teaching and management devolve into the same thing in our society...) As for being "stupid or mean", I'm quite capable of both, which is a concern when I have institutional power. The most stupid/mean people seem to be least capable of admitting it.

meragrin 12y ago
How does one disrespect another without being stupid, ignorant, or mean?
adam-a 12y ago
The theme of the article is the author believes his teachers did not respect him. I said he therefore must believe them to be stupid or mean, since we all believe he deserved their respect. To sustain the accusation though: > ... the teachers’ own internalized oppression as working class. Teachers are not paid well, which makes them feel bound and powerless, which is communicated to the students ... Here he is implying that teachers are unhappy and take it out on their students. This is a mean trait. > The truth is that at this level of “real world”, math beyond basic arithmetic and estimation is not really useful, so any attempt to make it seem so will be disingenuous. And here he believes his teachers were "disingenuous", which is also a mean trait. He then goes on to say > I believe kids are smart; they will not be fooled so easily. which shows he believes he is more intelligent than his teachers, since they didn't think kids were smart but he knows better. He also includes asides like > they never asked what I did with my time instead of doing homework. (I wonder what they thought?) suggesting he attributes to them a lack of thoughtfulness or critical thinking. I am open to more charitable interpretations, however I think the author is overly critical and not in a very helpful way since his argument is so distanced from the practicalities of teaching. I will admit that I find the article personally a bit sharp, since I have been discovering how difficult teaching is. And of course I have been guilty of being stupid and mean in the past, as everyone has. However I don't think my response was disproportionately hostile.

Decade 12y ago

I watched a very smart 5-year-old turn into a listless and bored 6-year-old. The school system's practice of beating down initiative can take effect shockingly quickly.