5 ms·

Children should do boring, pointless assignments to teach them "the importance of following orders and doing their job -- even or especially if they don't care

Children should do boring, pointless assignments to teach them "the importance of following orders and doing their job -- even or especially if they don't care about it"? This doesn't make sense to me. It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine. Even if doing a routine, manual job, people should be able to see some point to what they are doing. If it really is pointless (like lots of jobs), they should feel encouraged to speak up. In the janitor example, cleaning is an important job that people appreciate, the janitor making an important contribution to whatever is going on in the building (hospital, office, etc). But if the janitor is asked to do pointless busywork they should complain.

gargarplex 12y ago
"It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine." I disagree; I think that being expected to behave like a part of a machine is an essential, defining aspect of the human experience.
- forthefuture 12y ago
  The only problem is that the machine was built 300 years ago and almost no one would agree it works the way it's supposed to. The essential, defining aspect of human experience that you mention was invented by people who had the equivalence of, at best, a modern highschool education. I'd take my chances with contrarianism before I trust dumb old ghosts with my humanity.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  "is an essential, defining aspect" More likely, "was an essential, defining aspect briefly in the XX century". That century is now over. Before that, you was expected to steer your own judgement while working on a farm (not very machiney experience), and after that, everything that can be replaced by a machine would.
  - kd0amg 12y ago
    Wouldn't pre-industrial farming still involve mostly mindless, repetitive work in the fields?
    - guard-of-terra 12y ago
      Yes and no. When there's a disturbance in the repetitive work, it's your task to figure out how to fix it. Also, high-level management of the operation (what to plant, when to plant, how much effort to spend on each task) is up to you too. In hilly places rice growing has created the whole new highly custom landscapes. Compare this to XX century school or factory assembly line where you have no choices.
gaius 12y ago
This doesn't make sense to me. It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine. Any meaningful activity incorporates a significant amount of drudgery as a prerequisite. It's like the old joke, a man lost in New York asks a passing violinist, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? And the violinist replies, practice. Either you learn this young or you spend your whole life unable to do anything that isn't superficial.
- fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
  Perhaps pointless drudgery isn't the only way to instil discipline.
- jostylr 12y ago
  But do you learn the importance of practice from someone saying "Do these problems and you get a gold star?" or by letting someone try to accomplish what they want to do and letting then learn the value of real, thoughtful, purposeful practice for achieving personal success? Being engaged is a state that many of us want to be in. Failure to grow in ability leads to boredom which is a wonderful negative motivator.
  - unoti 12y ago
    Being engaged is terrific. Forcing yourself to do it anyway when it's not fun is at the very heart of professionalism and the pursuit of excellence. Engagement is important, but so is self-discipline. Consider what Frank Herbert says about this, for example: "So I don't worry about inspiration, or anything like that. It's a matter of just sitting down and working. I have never had the problem of a writing block. I've heard about it. I've felt reluctant to write on some days, for whole weeks, or sometimes even longer. I'd much rather go fishing, for example, or go sharpen pencils, or go swimming, or what not. But, later, coming back and reading what I have produced, I am unable to detect the difference between what came easily and when I had to sit down and say, 'Well, now it's writing time and now I'll write.' There's no difference on paper between the two."[1] [1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Herbert http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Herbert
- 12y ago

gargarplex 12y ago

"It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine." I disagree; I think that being expected to behave like a part of a machine is an essential, defining aspect of the human experience.

forthefuture 12y ago
The only problem is that the machine was built 300 years ago and almost no one would agree it works the way it's supposed to. The essential, defining aspect of human experience that you mention was invented by people who had the equivalence of, at best, a modern highschool education. I'd take my chances with contrarianism before I trust dumb old ghosts with my humanity.
guard-of-terra 12y ago
"is an essential, defining aspect" More likely, "was an essential, defining aspect briefly in the XX century". That century is now over. Before that, you was expected to steer your own judgement while working on a farm (not very machiney experience), and after that, everything that can be replaced by a machine would.
- kd0amg 12y ago
  Wouldn't pre-industrial farming still involve mostly mindless, repetitive work in the fields?
  - guard-of-terra 12y ago
    Yes and no. When there's a disturbance in the repetitive work, it's your task to figure out how to fix it. Also, high-level management of the operation (what to plant, when to plant, how much effort to spend on each task) is up to you too. In hilly places rice growing has created the whole new highly custom landscapes. Compare this to XX century school or factory assembly line where you have no choices.

gaius 12y ago

This doesn't make sense to me. It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine. Any meaningful activity incorporates a significant amount of drudgery as a prerequisite. It's like the old joke, a man lost in New York asks a passing violinist, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? And the violinist replies, practice. Either you learn this young or you spend your whole life unable to do anything that isn't superficial.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
Perhaps pointless drudgery isn't the only way to instil discipline.
jostylr 12y ago
But do you learn the importance of practice from someone saying "Do these problems and you get a gold star?" or by letting someone try to accomplish what they want to do and letting then learn the value of real, thoughtful, purposeful practice for achieving personal success? Being engaged is a state that many of us want to be in. Failure to grow in ability leads to boredom which is a wonderful negative motivator.
- unoti 12y ago
  Being engaged is terrific. Forcing yourself to do it anyway when it's not fun is at the very heart of professionalism and the pursuit of excellence. Engagement is important, but so is self-discipline. Consider what Frank Herbert says about this, for example: "So I don't worry about inspiration, or anything like that. It's a matter of just sitting down and working. I have never had the problem of a writing block. I've heard about it. I've felt reluctant to write on some days, for whole weeks, or sometimes even longer. I'd much rather go fishing, for example, or go sharpen pencils, or go swimming, or what not. But, later, coming back and reading what I have produced, I am unable to detect the difference between what came easily and when I had to sit down and say, 'Well, now it's writing time and now I'll write.' There's no difference on paper between the two."[1] [1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Herbert http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Herbert
12y ago