4 ms·

Good. I wonder who will follow next.

by tdkl 12y ago

webnrrd2k 12y ago
I haven't been following the news for a while, but I'd start looking at the other PIGS economies.
holoto 12y ago
Not sure this will work when countries do not pay back credits or bonds. Most countries today need to raise money to finance their spending. If everyone does this, the lending market will break down. Not sure that this helps those countries that depended on credits most (like Greece). I'm also not sure if it is the best strategy for Greece to bite the hand (EU as the IWF is just the beginning) who transfered billions of $ to Greece over the last decades. If the Greece government has a plan to not depend on credit and EU subsidies in the future, hurray to them. Perhaps with the new Russian conflict they could trade in EU subsidies and wealth transfer to renting bases to Russia. But they will find out it's much harder to break a 100 year contract for a Russian base in Greece than a contract with the IWF. If not, this looks like a bad move.
- nspattak 12y ago
  "I'm also not sure if it is the best strategy for Greece to bite the hand (EU as the IWF is just the beginning) who transfered billions of $ to Greece over the last decades." No one gives away any amount of mouney, let alone billions of them. I think you should inform yourself better before forming an opinion.
  - ptaipale 12y ago
    > No one gives away any amount of mouney, let alone billions of them. Much of modern government is about giving away other people's money.
- trhway 12y ago
  >Perhaps with the new Russian conflict they could trade in EU subsidies and wealth transfer to renting bases to Russia. But they will find out it's much harder to break a 100 year contract for a Russian base in Greece than a contract with the IWF. It isn't a base currently, it is natural gas pipeline ("New Blue Stream"). Bolgaria - under pressure from US/EU - has recently refused "South Stream" and thus Russia's acute need for new way into Europe met Greece's souring relationship with EU. And yes, gas pipeline is a contract which is pretty hard to break.
- youngtaff 12y ago
  Problem is the Greek bailout was actually a bailout of the German and French banks who lent Greece money. The EU sacrificed Greece to save their own skins https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi/troika-saved-banks-and-creditors-%E2%80%93-not-greece https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi...
  - taliesinb 12y ago
    Very few people seem to understand this perverse dimension to it. I even saw one mainstream newspaper use the phrase "economic aid" when referring to the loans given to Greece to service their existing debt! much the same perversion as the 2008 bailouts going to predatory lenders instead of bankrupt US homeowners
marvel_boy 12y ago
Spain, no doubt about it.
- philwelch 12y ago
  If for no other reason but to tighten their grip on their own national minorities. The Basques and Catalans would have a viable case for independence if they could be EU members and most Western nations are founded on the principle of self-determination. Should Spain continue on its present course of denying self-determination to the Basque Country and Catalonia, they will reject the basic values that the EU is founded upon. I'm not necessarily saying this as an advocate of Basque or Catalan independence. That is a question for the Basque and Catalan people. But a modern, moral, Western country would at least allow a binding referendum, as the UK has done in Scotland and as Canada did in Quebec. If Catalonia has a referendum and they choose to stay part of Spain, that is their choice. But the Spanish government refuses to grant them that choice.
  - youngtaff 12y ago
    I understand the independence movements but I don't understand why Scotland, or Catalan what independence only to become part of the even more un-representative EU. I'm sure EU policy makers on the other hand love small regions becoming independent and wanting to join the EU as they're easier to push around.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
      Scotland and Catalonia are already in the EU (as part of the UK, and as part of Spain, respectively). They must already implement EU laws. Independence cuts out the middleman and allows them to have a voice in the discussions around EU policy rather than having to implement laws they had no say in.
    - euccastro 12y ago
      It's not like they're having a lot of trouble pushing around Spain either...
_rpd 12y ago
The suffering of the people of Greece will be so great that no one will follow their path. In fact, it will be the basis of European fiscal union, since it will be so clear that there must be a mechanism to prevent further such tragedies.

Good. I wonder who will follow next.

by tdkl 12y ago

Good. I wonder who will follow next.

webnrrd2k 12y ago

I haven't been following the news for a while, but I'd start looking at the other PIGS economies.

holoto 12y ago

Not sure this will work when countries do not pay back credits or bonds. Most countries today need to raise money to finance their spending. If everyone does this, the lending market will break down. Not sure that this helps those countries that depended on credits most (like Greece). I'm also not sure if it is the best strategy for Greece to bite the hand (EU as the IWF is just the beginning) who transfered billions of $ to Greece over the last decades. If the Greece government has a plan to not depend on credit and EU subsidies in the future, hurray to them. Perhaps with the new Russian conflict they could trade in EU subsidies and wealth transfer to renting bases to Russia. But they will find out it's much harder to break a 100 year contract for a Russian base in Greece than a contract with the IWF. If not, this looks like a bad move.

nspattak 12y ago
"I'm also not sure if it is the best strategy for Greece to bite the hand (EU as the IWF is just the beginning) who transfered billions of $ to Greece over the last decades." No one gives away any amount of mouney, let alone billions of them. I think you should inform yourself better before forming an opinion.
- ptaipale 12y ago
  > No one gives away any amount of mouney, let alone billions of them. Much of modern government is about giving away other people's money.
trhway 12y ago
>Perhaps with the new Russian conflict they could trade in EU subsidies and wealth transfer to renting bases to Russia. But they will find out it's much harder to break a 100 year contract for a Russian base in Greece than a contract with the IWF. It isn't a base currently, it is natural gas pipeline ("New Blue Stream"). Bolgaria - under pressure from US/EU - has recently refused "South Stream" and thus Russia's acute need for new way into Europe met Greece's souring relationship with EU. And yes, gas pipeline is a contract which is pretty hard to break.
youngtaff 12y ago
Problem is the Greek bailout was actually a bailout of the German and French banks who lent Greece money. The EU sacrificed Greece to save their own skins https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi/troika-saved-banks-and-creditors-%E2%80%93-not-greece https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi...
- taliesinb 12y ago
  Very few people seem to understand this perverse dimension to it. I even saw one mainstream newspaper use the phrase "economic aid" when referring to the loans given to Greece to service their existing debt! much the same perversion as the 2008 bailouts going to predatory lenders instead of bankrupt US homeowners

marvel_boy 12y ago

Spain, no doubt about it.

philwelch 12y ago
If for no other reason but to tighten their grip on their own national minorities. The Basques and Catalans would have a viable case for independence if they could be EU members and most Western nations are founded on the principle of self-determination. Should Spain continue on its present course of denying self-determination to the Basque Country and Catalonia, they will reject the basic values that the EU is founded upon. I'm not necessarily saying this as an advocate of Basque or Catalan independence. That is a question for the Basque and Catalan people. But a modern, moral, Western country would at least allow a binding referendum, as the UK has done in Scotland and as Canada did in Quebec. If Catalonia has a referendum and they choose to stay part of Spain, that is their choice. But the Spanish government refuses to grant them that choice.
- youngtaff 12y ago
  I understand the independence movements but I don't understand why Scotland, or Catalan what independence only to become part of the even more un-representative EU. I'm sure EU policy makers on the other hand love small regions becoming independent and wanting to join the EU as they're easier to push around.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
    Scotland and Catalonia are already in the EU (as part of the UK, and as part of Spain, respectively). They must already implement EU laws. Independence cuts out the middleman and allows them to have a voice in the discussions around EU policy rather than having to implement laws they had no say in.
  - euccastro 12y ago
    It's not like they're having a lot of trouble pushing around Spain either...

_rpd 12y ago

The suffering of the people of Greece will be so great that no one will follow their path. In fact, it will be the basis of European fiscal union, since it will be so clear that there must be a mechanism to prevent further such tragedies.