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"the government doesn't control the inflation of bitcoin like it does with dollars"-- This is exactly the thing about Bitcoin that concerns me most; it has eco

by Frondo 12y ago

"the government doesn't control the inflation of bitcoin like it does with dollars"-- This is exactly the thing about Bitcoin that concerns me most; it has economic implications baked into its design and operation, but We, the People, have no voice in deciding those implications. What if We, the People, want to change the inflationary/deflationary properties of the money? If we're on bitcoin, someone else made that choice for you, and you have no recourse. I'm not at all comfortable giving away that kind of agency; after such a long arc toward greater democracy, it's hard to see bitcoin as anything but a substantial step away from democratic governance.

chisleu 12y ago
You assume that We, the People, have a say in current US economic policy. We don't. If Ee, the People, are on bitcoin, we have already made the decision to use a gold-like limited resource as a currency that will absolutely become deflationary at some point. You have no agency in government; no matter how great your use of punctuation.
- Frondo 12y ago
  Of course you have agency in government. You do vote, don't you? You go and meet your politicians, right? You talk to your fellow citizens and organize among them, right? I, as an individual, have put policy bugs in local politicians' ears just by showing up, shaking hands, making a persuasive case. And that's just from a few years off-and-on involvement, no money changing hands, no campaign funding, etc. I guess if you stay home and do nothing, then yeah, you have no agency.
  - dismal2 12y ago
    Go ahead and vote for the next FED chairman!
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      There is a big excluded middle between "all government officials are directly elected" and "the general public has no agency in government policy".
      - dismal2 12y ago
        So are you going to vote for the guy who opened Guantanamo and started illegal wars that cost thousands of innocent lives of the guy who won't close Guantanamo and uses robots to kill thousands of people with no oversight who end up being classified as enemy combatants as long as they are male, Arab, and of fighting age? Or maybe the leader who illegally spies on all the citizens of his country or the other guy who will do exactly the same thing. Decisions decisions...
        Frondo 12y ago
        I voted for the guy who pushed a lousy healthcare bill through the system, because if the other guy had won, I still wouldn't be able to afford health insurance as a freelancer. I also voted for the guy who's been pushing, feebly, for better conditions for workers, rather than the guy who joked, "I like to be able to fire people. Hey, nice ponchos, you garbage-bag-wearing peasants!" Did I get everything I wanted? No, of course not. Is any politician perfect? No, of course not. Is there a difference between the two major US parties? Oh yes.
        quadrangle 12y ago
        I love your perspectives here. Very reasonable. I voted for that guy too, but I lost a ton of respect for him (never had full respect anyway) when he refused to recognize the absolutely clear fact that Ed Snowden is a whistleblower and not a traitor. Anyway, the real answer to electoral issues is Score voting (see http://rangevoting.org/ http://rangevoting.org/ ). Also, since you're interested in economic democracy, have you seen the in-progress stuff at Snowdrift.coop ?
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  We, the People, can elect representatives that do have a say in our economic policy.
  - chisleu 12y ago
    If you think your vote means anything to the person you elect, you are part of the problem.
CyberDildonics 12y ago
You do realize that anyone can create their own crypto-currency correct? Right now you can't really choose what currency to use. When you can, you can choose an inflationary currency. Most people I would think will not.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  You can create your own non-crypto currency, to. The difficult part isn't creating a currency, its making it useful -- a social, not technological, problem.
swswsw 12y ago
I think you might be confused about how bitcoin actually works. If you want to change bitcoin's economics properties, you can. You just have to get all the nodes to agree with it. That is obviously very very difficult. Bitcoin runs on a decentralized consensus system and uses this consensus as the truth. You can change that truth if everyone agrees with you. In that sense, this is actually the true democracy.
- Frondo 12y ago
  I'm not confused about how bitcoin works. Saying "write code and persuade everyone to replace the current code with your new code" does not refute my original point that bitcoin is undemocratic. Democracy isn't based on "build a new system and then persuade 100% of the populace to adopt it". When I try to come up with analogous situations to what you're describing, I can't think of anything else, either, that would at all resemble a democratic process. I can't think of a single example of the political process where you could replace a voting citizenry with a "build a new system and persuade 100% of the populace to accept it" model, and still have that resemble, in any way, the original one of a voting citizenry. I also don't know why anyone in this day and age would be comfortable with promoting such obviously undemocratic functions of society. What next, calling for kings to make a comeback?

by Frondo 12y ago

chisleu 12y ago

You assume that We, the People, have a say in current US economic policy. We don't. If Ee, the People, are on bitcoin, we have already made the decision to use a gold-like limited resource as a currency that will absolutely become deflationary at some point. You have no agency in government; no matter how great your use of punctuation.

Frondo 12y ago
Of course you have agency in government. You do vote, don't you? You go and meet your politicians, right? You talk to your fellow citizens and organize among them, right? I, as an individual, have put policy bugs in local politicians' ears just by showing up, shaking hands, making a persuasive case. And that's just from a few years off-and-on involvement, no money changing hands, no campaign funding, etc. I guess if you stay home and do nothing, then yeah, you have no agency.
- dismal2 12y ago
  Go ahead and vote for the next FED chairman!
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    There is a big excluded middle between "all government officials are directly elected" and "the general public has no agency in government policy".
    - dismal2 12y ago
      So are you going to vote for the guy who opened Guantanamo and started illegal wars that cost thousands of innocent lives of the guy who won't close Guantanamo and uses robots to kill thousands of people with no oversight who end up being classified as enemy combatants as long as they are male, Arab, and of fighting age? Or maybe the leader who illegally spies on all the citizens of his country or the other guy who will do exactly the same thing. Decisions decisions...
      - Frondo 12y ago
        I voted for the guy who pushed a lousy healthcare bill through the system, because if the other guy had won, I still wouldn't be able to afford health insurance as a freelancer. I also voted for the guy who's been pushing, feebly, for better conditions for workers, rather than the guy who joked, "I like to be able to fire people. Hey, nice ponchos, you garbage-bag-wearing peasants!" Did I get everything I wanted? No, of course not. Is any politician perfect? No, of course not. Is there a difference between the two major US parties? Oh yes.
        quadrangle 12y ago
        I love your perspectives here. Very reasonable. I voted for that guy too, but I lost a ton of respect for him (never had full respect anyway) when he refused to recognize the absolutely clear fact that Ed Snowden is a whistleblower and not a traitor. Anyway, the real answer to electoral issues is Score voting (see http://rangevoting.org/ http://rangevoting.org/ ). Also, since you're interested in economic democracy, have you seen the in-progress stuff at Snowdrift.coop ?
Igglyboo 12y ago
We, the People, can elect representatives that do have a say in our economic policy.
- chisleu 12y ago
  If you think your vote means anything to the person you elect, you are part of the problem.

CyberDildonics 12y ago

You do realize that anyone can create their own crypto-currency correct? Right now you can't really choose what currency to use. When you can, you can choose an inflationary currency. Most people I would think will not.

dragonwriter 12y ago
You can create your own non-crypto currency, to. The difficult part isn't creating a currency, its making it useful -- a social, not technological, problem.

swswsw 12y ago

I think you might be confused about how bitcoin actually works. If you want to change bitcoin's economics properties, you can. You just have to get all the nodes to agree with it. That is obviously very very difficult. Bitcoin runs on a decentralized consensus system and uses this consensus as the truth. You can change that truth if everyone agrees with you. In that sense, this is actually the true democracy.

Frondo 12y ago
I'm not confused about how bitcoin works. Saying "write code and persuade everyone to replace the current code with your new code" does not refute my original point that bitcoin is undemocratic. Democracy isn't based on "build a new system and then persuade 100% of the populace to adopt it". When I try to come up with analogous situations to what you're describing, I can't think of anything else, either, that would at all resemble a democratic process. I can't think of a single example of the political process where you could replace a voting citizenry with a "build a new system and persuade 100% of the populace to accept it" model, and still have that resemble, in any way, the original one of a voting citizenry. I also don't know why anyone in this day and age would be comfortable with promoting such obviously undemocratic functions of society. What next, calling for kings to make a comeback?