6 ms·

That doesn't explain why the innovation didn't happen in, say Somalia, where there are no government regulations to speak of.

baddox 12y ago
The situation in Somalia can be readily explained by low incomes and decades of violence.
- foldr 12y ago
  Which in turn can readily be explained by the lack of a strong government.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Can it? On what do you base that opinion? What particular facts from the modern history of Somalia have you used to support it?
    - foldr 12y ago
      The fact that it's currently in a state of near anarchy and has been for a while.
      - icebraining 12y ago
        That's not an explanation, that's restating the fact.
        foldr 12y ago
        Your comment was ambiguous. I thought you were asking me for the basis of my claim that Somalia lacks a strong government. If you think the civil war doesn't have anything to do with Somalia's current problems, I'm open to being persuaded.
        icebraining 12y ago
        The civil war and the lack of a strong government are not the same. It's the former, and not the latter, which maintains them in poverty.
        foldr 12y ago
        A civil war happens precisely because there is no strong government. It's completely bizarre to claim that there's no link between the two.
      - baddox 12y ago
        How do you explain the improvements that have occurred since the collapse of Barre's regime? That seems to indicate that anarchy cannot be blamed for the poor conditions in Somalia compared to, say, wealthy Western nations.
        foldr 12y ago
        I'm not defending the hypothesis that any government is better than no government. So sure, having a really really bad government could be worse for Somalia than having none at all.
  - puredemo 12y ago
    That's a pretty facile response. Lots of African countries with "strong" governments still have tons and tons of violence.
    - foldr 12y ago
      Somalia went through a civil war in recent history. That's about the best possible example of violence caused by the lack of a strong government. Of course, violence can occur for other reasons too, so merely having a strong government is no guarantee of its absence.
  - baddox 12y ago
    I presume you know very little about Somalia's recent history. It had a strong government from 1969 to 1991. It was a military dictatorship with a centrally planned economy ("scientific socialism"). After the regime's collapse in 1991, Somalia was essentially stateless, and there was dispersed fighting between various groups for control of various areas of Somalia. Yet, perhaps surprisingly to many people, it's not clear that things were worse under "anarchy" than under Barre's regime. For instance, life expectancy improved dramatically, as did access to health care and technology.
    - foldr 12y ago
      You appear to be confusing strength with brutality. The military dictatorship was not strong. That’s why it collapsed. In general, dictatorships tend to be weak and unstable in comparison to more democratic forms of government.
      - baddox 12y ago
        I'm not confusing the two. The government was brutal, and it was also strong. It censored the media. It nationalized all major industries. It carried out large scale terror campaigns against political dissidents and Somali clans. It suppressed civil liberties on a very wide scale.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    Right, because Somalia has never had a government, or the lack thereof today has nothing to do with the previous government.
    - foldr 12y ago
      We really are going down the libertarian rabbit hole when even the absence of government is blamed on government.
      - moron4hire 12y ago
        I'm not trying to paint all governments with the same brush. I'm just saying that, perhaps, you don't know anything about Somalia and are just using it as a strawman against small government. edit: it's one, single country that has had a very violent history, not a case study in deregulation of markets.
        foldr 12y ago
        I didn’t say anything about small government or market deregulation. Small vs large is orthogonal to strong vs. weak.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - baddox 12y ago
        You don't have to be libertarian to recognize that Barre's military dictatorship was not an example of a good government. From Wikipedia: > The United Nations Development Programme stated that "the 21-year regime of Siyad Barre had one of the worst human rights records in Africa." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre#Human_rights_abuse_allegations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre#Human_rights_abuse_a...
  - retardedelk 12y ago
    ...And an abundance of strong governments who are willing to fund various factions to kill other various factions to fight a proxy war over natural resources.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- s73v3r 12y ago
  But if there's no government intervention, then why are incomes so low, and why is there so much violence?
  - baddox 12y ago
    After the collapse of the Somali Democratic Republic in 1991, incomes increased and violence decreased.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  That's why they don't have an industry there. But any western manufacturer could go to some lightly-regulated place, start handing out Better Condoms (tm) like candy, and then point to major improvements in user satisfaction, disease transmission rates, and so on in order to create pressure for a more careful evaluation in other markets like the US or EU. Think back to news you've read about the deployment of improved mosquito netting and the like, which is tried out in Africa because that's where the greatest need exists.
- protomyth 12y ago
  ...which means they will need children and are not focused on prevention technology

baddox 12y ago

The situation in Somalia can be readily explained by low incomes and decades of violence.

foldr 12y ago
Which in turn can readily be explained by the lack of a strong government.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Can it? On what do you base that opinion? What particular facts from the modern history of Somalia have you used to support it?
  - foldr 12y ago
    The fact that it's currently in a state of near anarchy and has been for a while.
    - icebraining 12y ago
      That's not an explanation, that's restating the fact.
      - foldr 12y ago
        Your comment was ambiguous. I thought you were asking me for the basis of my claim that Somalia lacks a strong government. If you think the civil war doesn't have anything to do with Somalia's current problems, I'm open to being persuaded.
        icebraining 12y ago
        The civil war and the lack of a strong government are not the same. It's the former, and not the latter, which maintains them in poverty.
        foldr 12y ago
        A civil war happens precisely because there is no strong government. It's completely bizarre to claim that there's no link between the two.
    - baddox 12y ago
      How do you explain the improvements that have occurred since the collapse of Barre's regime? That seems to indicate that anarchy cannot be blamed for the poor conditions in Somalia compared to, say, wealthy Western nations.
      - foldr 12y ago
        I'm not defending the hypothesis that any government is better than no government. So sure, having a really really bad government could be worse for Somalia than having none at all.
- puredemo 12y ago
  That's a pretty facile response. Lots of African countries with "strong" governments still have tons and tons of violence.
  - foldr 12y ago
    Somalia went through a civil war in recent history. That's about the best possible example of violence caused by the lack of a strong government. Of course, violence can occur for other reasons too, so merely having a strong government is no guarantee of its absence.
- baddox 12y ago
  I presume you know very little about Somalia's recent history. It had a strong government from 1969 to 1991. It was a military dictatorship with a centrally planned economy ("scientific socialism"). After the regime's collapse in 1991, Somalia was essentially stateless, and there was dispersed fighting between various groups for control of various areas of Somalia. Yet, perhaps surprisingly to many people, it's not clear that things were worse under "anarchy" than under Barre's regime. For instance, life expectancy improved dramatically, as did access to health care and technology.
  - foldr 12y ago
    You appear to be confusing strength with brutality. The military dictatorship was not strong. That’s why it collapsed. In general, dictatorships tend to be weak and unstable in comparison to more democratic forms of government.
    - baddox 12y ago
      I'm not confusing the two. The government was brutal, and it was also strong. It censored the media. It nationalized all major industries. It carried out large scale terror campaigns against political dissidents and Somali clans. It suppressed civil liberties on a very wide scale.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  Right, because Somalia has never had a government, or the lack thereof today has nothing to do with the previous government.
  - foldr 12y ago
    We really are going down the libertarian rabbit hole when even the absence of government is blamed on government.
    - moron4hire 12y ago
      I'm not trying to paint all governments with the same brush. I'm just saying that, perhaps, you don't know anything about Somalia and are just using it as a strawman against small government. edit: it's one, single country that has had a very violent history, not a case study in deregulation of markets.
      - foldr 12y ago
        I didn’t say anything about small government or market deregulation. Small vs large is orthogonal to strong vs. weak.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - baddox 12y ago
      You don't have to be libertarian to recognize that Barre's military dictatorship was not an example of a good government. From Wikipedia: > The United Nations Development Programme stated that "the 21-year regime of Siyad Barre had one of the worst human rights records in Africa." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre#Human_rights_abuse_allegations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siad_Barre#Human_rights_abuse_a...
- retardedelk 12y ago
  ...And an abundance of strong governments who are willing to fund various factions to kill other various factions to fight a proxy war over natural resources.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
s73v3r 12y ago
But if there's no government intervention, then why are incomes so low, and why is there so much violence?
- baddox 12y ago
  After the collapse of the Somali Democratic Republic in 1991, incomes increased and violence decreased.
anigbrowl 12y ago
That's why they don't have an industry there. But any western manufacturer could go to some lightly-regulated place, start handing out Better Condoms (tm) like candy, and then point to major improvements in user satisfaction, disease transmission rates, and so on in order to create pressure for a more careful evaluation in other markets like the US or EU. Think back to news you've read about the deployment of improved mosquito netting and the like, which is tried out in Africa because that's where the greatest need exists.
protomyth 12y ago
...which means they will need children and are not focused on prevention technology