6 ms·

All else being equal it would make sense to move. But all else isn't equal and having an audit and knowing the programmer knew their stuff enough to pass the a

All else being equal it would make sense to move. But all else isn't equal and having an audit and knowing the programmer knew their stuff enough to pass the audit (especially since this is in the crypto field) seems to be a huge benefit that other projects can't match right now.

tptacek 12y ago
BitLocker and Filevault were almost certainly reviewed more carefully than Truecrypt was (I didn't participate in either audit, but can confirm that both of those companies allocate significant resources to third-party audits).
- thesimon 12y ago
  Yeah, better trust US companies who are subject to NSA, which has been proven to require no backdoors in software /s
  - sdevlin 12y ago
    If those companies wanted to subvert your TrueCrypt installation, they would have an easy time of it.
    - mafribe 12y ago
      Could you sketch how, so we can think about countermeasures?
      - tedunangst 12y ago
        MITM the http connection you used to download truecrypt?
      - Buge 12y ago
        I assume MITM your https connection by manipulating CAs. Or use one of their 0days to breaking into your machine and get your data while it is decrypted in memory or just steal your password.
    - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
      I would assume both Windows and Mac are compromised to the level of C&C by the NSA. In a threat model that includes them I would not use either. But I would still think Windows + TrueCrypt is better than Windows + BitLocker.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Do you mean "NSA has stockpiled vulnerabilities they've discovered in Win8 that would enable them to quickly enroll a networked Win8 box into a C&C"? If so: sure, I agree. Do you mean "NSA has implanted backdoors into Win8 that would enable them to directly enroll a Win8 box into a C&C"? If so: virtually nobody who does professional vulnerability research, myself included, agrees. The distinction matters here, because if all you're saying is the former thing, that impacts Truecrypt just as much as Bitlocker, because it's equally true of every operating system, including Linux, FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
        Lawtonfogle 12y ago
        Does it have an implanted back door? I don't know. Can it give one to Microsoft and say push it out as an update for these individuals and if you say anything you'll end up in prison? That is the problem with secret courts.
      - mapt 12y ago
        This seems silly, but Microsoft appears, on the surface, to have purchased Skype with the intention of selling surveillance to the NSA. They immediately replaced the whole network architecture and encryption setup with something that had weaker security and was subject to compromise of Microsoft. That's the sort of player we're dealing with, and that's why Bitlocker is not just improvably secure, it is best to simply assume that there are deliberate backdoors, whether any particular employee knows of them or not.
        astrange 12y ago
        Skype's peer-to-peer networking was entirely unsuitable for running on mobile devices, the new default market. I was never able to leave it logged in on my phone before, or else I'd only have half the usual battery life.
    - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
      Easy, but not as easy. I'm not saying that something is 100% secure, I'm saying that option A is better than option B.
  - fluidcruft 12y ago
    Of course. I mean once your threat model includes secret shadowy intelligencia overlords that can bend corporations to their will, there's just no way they could tamper an audit.
    - malka 12y ago
      They could even force the CPU makers to include backdoors directly in the silicon ;)
      - dijit 12y ago
        truecrypt had a software AES implementation you could enable.. if seriously paranoid. performance impacting though.
      - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
        That one layer of security may be compromised with no possible recourse does not mean that one should abandon considerations of compromisation of other layers that do have recourse.
      - tracker1 12y ago
        See: Trusted Platform Module (TPM) Between China and the USA, there's almost certainly hardware backdoors in place for some systems. IIRC there has been evidence of router tampering for ISP hardware shipping across borders.
- Lawtonfogle 12y ago
  Certainly reviewed more and certainly infected by the NSA more. Until the taint of the NSA has been removed those are outright no gos.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I feel like a lot of people probably think the way you do: that software for which source code isn't available is trivially backdoored by NSA. In fact, huge chunks of the billion-dollar software security industry are premised on the idea that this isn't true at all: that you can, for instance, recover the control flow graph from a binary compiled program, and then from that recover an intelligible IR, and then examine that for security flaws. Where, exactly, do you suggest that NSA could have tainted Bitlocker in a manner that wouldn't also implicate Truecrypt?
    - pm24601 12y ago
      It goes like this: NSA: "Hi, can you please let us see your source code." (The conversation below happens in your head): <thought-bubble> "Do I want to spend the next 15 years and all my money and life trying to stay out of jail?" "Do I want the IRS to know about trips to the Cayman Islands?" "Do I want my wife to know about my mistress?" </thought-bubble> Me/You: "Sure no problem!" I know its nice to think about that we would the moral high ground. Try doing it alone with just a nice government official.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        This is in no way responsive to my comment, which wasn't about whether the USG would coerce Microsoft.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - Karunamon 12y ago
      Possibly contrived example: An airgapped Windows machine. We've eliminated the possibility of any data exfiltration (all the software vulnerabilities in the world can't transmit on a downed interface), but that does not mean that the encryption itself is not defeated in some way by the existence of a "master key" or some other flaw that allows an attacker to access the data offline. Truecrypt has now been proven to have no such flaws. It's unlikely that Bitlocker will ever be proven in the same way. Anyone that has a legitimate fear of that kind of attack, the bad guys with guns coming in and seizing your stuff, would use Truecrypt over Bitlocker out of an abundance of caution.
sdevlin 12y ago
I would just use the built-in disk encryption solutions your platform offers. This is also what the TrueCrypt developer recommends.
- huhtenberg 12y ago
  > This is also what the TrueCrypt developer recommends. You can't be seriously deferring to that? The end-of-the-line announcement was so completely out of sync with all previous communications from the TC devs, so un-TrueCrypt like, that everything it said should be taken with a huge grain of salt. _Especially_ any advice pertaining to better managing one's security needs.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I'm not sure I know of a professional cryptography engineer who believes that what happened with Truecrypt is anything more than what that developer said. Can you cite one?
    - huhtenberg 12y ago
      They believe that, huh? Interesting wording.
    - LordKano 12y ago
      What convinces me that there is more to the story is what they haven't said.
    - compbio 12y ago
      But maybe what they did today makes that impossible. They set the whole thing on fire, and now maybe nobody is going to trust it because they’ll think there’s some big evil vulnerability in the code. But now this decision makes me feel like they’re kind of unreliable. Also, I’m a little worried that the fact that we were doing an audit of the crypto might have made them decide to call it quits. - Matthew Green TrueCrypt's developers chose not to graciously turn their beloved creation over to a wider Internet development community, but rather, ... to attempt to kill it off by creating a dramatically neutered 7.2 version ... - Steve Gibson I have no idea what's going on with TrueCrypt, Speculations include a massive hack of the TrueCrypt developers, some Lavabit-like forced shutdown, and an internal power struggle within TrueCrypt. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what develops. - Bruce Schneier.
compbio 12y ago
As far as I can gather the Dutch authorities are not able to retrieve TrueCrypt keys. I can not say the same about BitLocker and FileVault. If the US knows how to get into TrueCrypt volumes then at least they are not sharing that knowledge with foreign allied agencies.

tptacek 12y ago

BitLocker and Filevault were almost certainly reviewed more carefully than Truecrypt was (I didn't participate in either audit, but can confirm that both of those companies allocate significant resources to third-party audits).

thesimon 12y ago
Yeah, better trust US companies who are subject to NSA, which has been proven to require no backdoors in software /s
- sdevlin 12y ago
  If those companies wanted to subvert your TrueCrypt installation, they would have an easy time of it.
  - mafribe 12y ago
    Could you sketch how, so we can think about countermeasures?
    - tedunangst 12y ago
      MITM the http connection you used to download truecrypt?
    - Buge 12y ago
      I assume MITM your https connection by manipulating CAs. Or use one of their 0days to breaking into your machine and get your data while it is decrypted in memory or just steal your password.
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    I would assume both Windows and Mac are compromised to the level of C&C by the NSA. In a threat model that includes them I would not use either. But I would still think Windows + TrueCrypt is better than Windows + BitLocker.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Do you mean "NSA has stockpiled vulnerabilities they've discovered in Win8 that would enable them to quickly enroll a networked Win8 box into a C&C"? If so: sure, I agree. Do you mean "NSA has implanted backdoors into Win8 that would enable them to directly enroll a Win8 box into a C&C"? If so: virtually nobody who does professional vulnerability research, myself included, agrees. The distinction matters here, because if all you're saying is the former thing, that impacts Truecrypt just as much as Bitlocker, because it's equally true of every operating system, including Linux, FreeBSD and OpenBSD.
      - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
        Does it have an implanted back door? I don't know. Can it give one to Microsoft and say push it out as an update for these individuals and if you say anything you'll end up in prison? That is the problem with secret courts.
    - mapt 12y ago
      This seems silly, but Microsoft appears, on the surface, to have purchased Skype with the intention of selling surveillance to the NSA. They immediately replaced the whole network architecture and encryption setup with something that had weaker security and was subject to compromise of Microsoft. That's the sort of player we're dealing with, and that's why Bitlocker is not just improvably secure, it is best to simply assume that there are deliberate backdoors, whether any particular employee knows of them or not.
      - astrange 12y ago
        Skype's peer-to-peer networking was entirely unsuitable for running on mobile devices, the new default market. I was never able to leave it logged in on my phone before, or else I'd only have half the usual battery life.
  - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
    Easy, but not as easy. I'm not saying that something is 100% secure, I'm saying that option A is better than option B.
- fluidcruft 12y ago
  Of course. I mean once your threat model includes secret shadowy intelligencia overlords that can bend corporations to their will, there's just no way they could tamper an audit.
  - malka 12y ago
    They could even force the CPU makers to include backdoors directly in the silicon ;)
    - dijit 12y ago
      truecrypt had a software AES implementation you could enable.. if seriously paranoid. performance impacting though.
    - Lawtonfogle 12y ago
      That one layer of security may be compromised with no possible recourse does not mean that one should abandon considerations of compromisation of other layers that do have recourse.
    - tracker1 12y ago
      See: Trusted Platform Module (TPM) Between China and the USA, there's almost certainly hardware backdoors in place for some systems. IIRC there has been evidence of router tampering for ISP hardware shipping across borders.
Lawtonfogle 12y ago
Certainly reviewed more and certainly infected by the NSA more. Until the taint of the NSA has been removed those are outright no gos.
- tptacek 12y ago
  I feel like a lot of people probably think the way you do: that software for which source code isn't available is trivially backdoored by NSA. In fact, huge chunks of the billion-dollar software security industry are premised on the idea that this isn't true at all: that you can, for instance, recover the control flow graph from a binary compiled program, and then from that recover an intelligible IR, and then examine that for security flaws. Where, exactly, do you suggest that NSA could have tainted Bitlocker in a manner that wouldn't also implicate Truecrypt?
  - pm24601 12y ago
    It goes like this: NSA: "Hi, can you please let us see your source code." (The conversation below happens in your head): <thought-bubble> "Do I want to spend the next 15 years and all my money and life trying to stay out of jail?" "Do I want the IRS to know about trips to the Cayman Islands?" "Do I want my wife to know about my mistress?" </thought-bubble> Me/You: "Sure no problem!" I know its nice to think about that we would the moral high ground. Try doing it alone with just a nice government official.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      This is in no way responsive to my comment, which wasn't about whether the USG would coerce Microsoft.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Possibly contrived example: An airgapped Windows machine. We've eliminated the possibility of any data exfiltration (all the software vulnerabilities in the world can't transmit on a downed interface), but that does not mean that the encryption itself is not defeated in some way by the existence of a "master key" or some other flaw that allows an attacker to access the data offline. Truecrypt has now been proven to have no such flaws. It's unlikely that Bitlocker will ever be proven in the same way. Anyone that has a legitimate fear of that kind of attack, the bad guys with guns coming in and seizing your stuff, would use Truecrypt over Bitlocker out of an abundance of caution.

sdevlin 12y ago

I would just use the built-in disk encryption solutions your platform offers. This is also what the TrueCrypt developer recommends.

huhtenberg 12y ago
> This is also what the TrueCrypt developer recommends. You can't be seriously deferring to that? The end-of-the-line announcement was so completely out of sync with all previous communications from the TC devs, so un-TrueCrypt like, that everything it said should be taken with a huge grain of salt. _Especially_ any advice pertaining to better managing one's security needs.
- tptacek 12y ago
  I'm not sure I know of a professional cryptography engineer who believes that what happened with Truecrypt is anything more than what that developer said. Can you cite one?
  - huhtenberg 12y ago
    They believe that, huh? Interesting wording.
  - LordKano 12y ago
    What convinces me that there is more to the story is what they haven't said.
  - compbio 12y ago
    But maybe what they did today makes that impossible. They set the whole thing on fire, and now maybe nobody is going to trust it because they’ll think there’s some big evil vulnerability in the code. But now this decision makes me feel like they’re kind of unreliable. Also, I’m a little worried that the fact that we were doing an audit of the crypto might have made them decide to call it quits. - Matthew Green TrueCrypt's developers chose not to graciously turn their beloved creation over to a wider Internet development community, but rather, ... to attempt to kill it off by creating a dramatically neutered 7.2 version ... - Steve Gibson I have no idea what's going on with TrueCrypt, Speculations include a massive hack of the TrueCrypt developers, some Lavabit-like forced shutdown, and an internal power struggle within TrueCrypt. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what develops. - Bruce Schneier.

compbio 12y ago

As far as I can gather the Dutch authorities are not able to retrieve TrueCrypt keys. I can not say the same about BitLocker and FileVault. If the US knows how to get into TrueCrypt volumes then at least they are not sharing that knowledge with foreign allied agencies.