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This mouth-breathing Bullshit really needs to stop. the overwhelmingly most likely suspect for the source of the GitHub attacks is the Chinese government. Why

by moe 12y ago

This mouth-breathing Bullshit really needs to stop. the overwhelmingly most likely suspect for the source of the GitHub attacks is the Chinese government. Why would the "Chinese government" carry out an open attack against an american company for absolutely no potential gain at all? Do you really think they are stupid enough to believe such an attack could remove these two software packages from the internet?

wnevets 12y ago
What is the diplomatic downside for china exactly? If China can occupy & claim other countries territory in the face of international pressure without a problem, what makes you think a convert op to DDoS github is out of the question?
- moe 12y ago
  what makes you think a convert op to DDoS github is out of the question? The fact that this attack doesn't pass even a most cursory risk/reward analysis. Anyone with the technical smarts to carry it out must be well aware that there is zero upside potential for China. The targeted projects are not gonna disappear, github is not gonna disappear. All possible outcomes are negative; The targeted projects get extra media attention (Streisand effect), the "Cyberwar" narrative in the west is fueled (cf. this HN thread), in the worst case there could even be a minor diplomatic quarrel with the US. What do they have to win here?
  - wnevets 12y ago
    I see several wins for china, the first one is showing off the offensive power of their "great firewall". Not everyone has the ability to withstand such an attack, the chilling effect is real.
    - moe 12y ago
      What chilling effect? Github is up and running after all. Both targeted projects are online: https://github.com/greatfire https://github.com/cn-nytimes Looks like if you want to mess with China then all you have to do is put your material on Github. You think that is the lesson China wanted to teach the world?
      - wnevets 12y ago
        You dont see a chilling effect when the choice is either host your content on github or be blasted off the internet? Lets not forget this wasnt an easy thing for github to handle. Their service still isnt running at 100% normal. Not to mention the cost burden they're currently dealing with.
        moe 12y ago
        You dont see a chilling effect when the choice is either host your content on github or be blasted off the internet? Was there any doubt about China's ability to blast sites much bigger than Github off the internet to begin with? They're the second largest economy in the world. They don't need to play painfully obvious MITM tricks on their own infrastructure to carry out an attack - which then doesn't even have enough oomph to make a dent on a large but probably not particularly hardened site. Lets not forget this wasnt an easy thing for github to handle. That doesn't change the message that this random, half-assed neck-slap sends. If this was really done by Chinese authorities and if I was a Chinese dissident then I'd be thrilled rather than chilled. Who knew keeping my stuff online could be as easy as uploading it to Github!
        pekk 12y ago
        Nobody ever said China couldn't run DDOS tools. This is a deterrent signal sent to businesses outside of China. It publicly demonstrates that China has the will to punish businesses for serving certain kinds of content. Although it's obvious who benefits, it's just deniable enough that they have avoided international censure; today nobody can reasonably think "China wouldn't do that because they fear reprisals," since they just did it; which helps China maintain a credible threat to businesses. They aren't trying to destroy GitHub, just to exert control over businesses which are out of their regulatory reach.
        moe 12y ago
        It publicly demonstrates that China has the will to punish businesses for serving certain kinds of content. Do you really think anyone concerned with these things (activists, VPN providers, companies doing business with China) needed a half-assed, unsuccessful Github attack as a "deterrent signal"?
pekk 12y ago
Why would the "Chinese government" carry out pervasive domestic censorship? They know information is still going to get around on back channels. That was never the point. The potential gain is that they can extend this capability (and chilling effect) to GitHub and other sites that aren't under the sovereign control of China. Nobody wants to go out of business just because a user uploaded a file which is politically controversial in China. Now every company will think twice and come up with some weaselly reason why they can't have text files about Falun Gong or whatever.
- moe 12y ago
  Now every company will think twice and come up with some weaselly reason why they can't have text files about Falun Gong or whatever. You mean like Github did in this very case? Except wait, they didn't. So who is this "every company" that will now "think twice"?

by moe 12y ago

wnevets 12y ago

What is the diplomatic downside for china exactly? If China can occupy & claim other countries territory in the face of international pressure without a problem, what makes you think a convert op to DDoS github is out of the question?

moe 12y ago
what makes you think a convert op to DDoS github is out of the question? The fact that this attack doesn't pass even a most cursory risk/reward analysis. Anyone with the technical smarts to carry it out must be well aware that there is zero upside potential for China. The targeted projects are not gonna disappear, github is not gonna disappear. All possible outcomes are negative; The targeted projects get extra media attention (Streisand effect), the "Cyberwar" narrative in the west is fueled (cf. this HN thread), in the worst case there could even be a minor diplomatic quarrel with the US. What do they have to win here?
- wnevets 12y ago
  I see several wins for china, the first one is showing off the offensive power of their "great firewall". Not everyone has the ability to withstand such an attack, the chilling effect is real.
  - moe 12y ago
    What chilling effect? Github is up and running after all. Both targeted projects are online: https://github.com/greatfire https://github.com/cn-nytimes Looks like if you want to mess with China then all you have to do is put your material on Github. You think that is the lesson China wanted to teach the world?
    - wnevets 12y ago
      You dont see a chilling effect when the choice is either host your content on github or be blasted off the internet? Lets not forget this wasnt an easy thing for github to handle. Their service still isnt running at 100% normal. Not to mention the cost burden they're currently dealing with.
      - moe 12y ago
        You dont see a chilling effect when the choice is either host your content on github or be blasted off the internet? Was there any doubt about China's ability to blast sites much bigger than Github off the internet to begin with? They're the second largest economy in the world. They don't need to play painfully obvious MITM tricks on their own infrastructure to carry out an attack - which then doesn't even have enough oomph to make a dent on a large but probably not particularly hardened site. Lets not forget this wasnt an easy thing for github to handle. That doesn't change the message that this random, half-assed neck-slap sends. If this was really done by Chinese authorities and if I was a Chinese dissident then I'd be thrilled rather than chilled. Who knew keeping my stuff online could be as easy as uploading it to Github!
        pekk 12y ago
        Nobody ever said China couldn't run DDOS tools. This is a deterrent signal sent to businesses outside of China. It publicly demonstrates that China has the will to punish businesses for serving certain kinds of content. Although it's obvious who benefits, it's just deniable enough that they have avoided international censure; today nobody can reasonably think "China wouldn't do that because they fear reprisals," since they just did it; which helps China maintain a credible threat to businesses. They aren't trying to destroy GitHub, just to exert control over businesses which are out of their regulatory reach.
        moe 12y ago
        It publicly demonstrates that China has the will to punish businesses for serving certain kinds of content. Do you really think anyone concerned with these things (activists, VPN providers, companies doing business with China) needed a half-assed, unsuccessful Github attack as a "deterrent signal"?

pekk 12y ago

Why would the "Chinese government" carry out pervasive domestic censorship? They know information is still going to get around on back channels. That was never the point. The potential gain is that they can extend this capability (and chilling effect) to GitHub and other sites that aren't under the sovereign control of China. Nobody wants to go out of business just because a user uploaded a file which is politically controversial in China. Now every company will think twice and come up with some weaselly reason why they can't have text files about Falun Gong or whatever.

moe 12y ago
Now every company will think twice and come up with some weaselly reason why they can't have text files about Falun Gong or whatever. You mean like Github did in this very case? Except wait, they didn't. So who is this "every company" that will now "think twice"?