3 ms·

12 gauge shotgun

by jlaws 12y ago

12 gauge shotgun

hga 12y ago
Unless you live in an awful place which doesn't allow handguns for self-defense, shotguns tend to be a pretty poor choice for home defense. Confined spaces make them unwieldy, and it's frighteningly easy for an adversary to grab it outside of your grip and use the bigger lever arm to twist it out of your hands, as I demonstrated a few years ago to a nephew who's bigger and much younger and more fit than I am. Normal self-defense handguns are much easier to retain, and not quite so overpowered.
- jqm 12y ago
  I very strongly disagree. I believe a shotgun is very much the best home defense weapon. Most people are poor shots with a handgun, especially if woken up in the middle of the night. A shotgun is a point in the general direction and shoot kind of thing. It also has a lot more stopping power than a handgun. Also, with a shotgun, you can use larger gauge bird shot or something like #4 buck shot and it is less likely to penetrate walls and hurt someone you didn't intend. A 12 gauge pump shotgun is also an intimidating looking and sounding weapon. Much more so than something like a 9mm handgun. Finally, the laws regarding shotguns for many area of the US are likely to be much less restrictive than on handguns. I understand your comment about the unwieldiness of shotguns, but in my particular case, my shotgun has double pistol grips and no stock. I would be much less concerned about loosing control of it than I would a pistol. I have a top mounted light that triggers when the front pistol grip is grasped. It is (almost) as short as the law allows... the entire weapon is just over 2 feet long (28 inches to be exact). I hope I never have to use it in defense or worse yet, shoot to kill someone. For this reason I have 5 shells in the chamber. The first two are birdshot... deadly at close range, less likely to be so at a further range. Then I have two rounds of #4 buck, then a slug. I have 5 more rounds of #4 buck in holders at the top. I've considered having the first two rounds rubber like the police use.
  - hga 12y ago
    A shotgun is a point in the general direction and shoot kind of thing. Now, I have to admit I haven't patterned any shotgun at close range, but everything I've read and seen says at home defense ranges you have to aim them with almost as much care as a rifle, the pattern expands rather slowly, even with cylinder choke (no choke). And I know from too much wingshooting that at range you have to be pretty precise as well. A quick check with Google came up with http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/ http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-me... which doesn't fill me with confidence in the lack of interior house construction penetration of #4 buck. Note, per the above, that the pattern at 12 feet was 3.5 inches, which matches pretty well the 1 inch spread/yard metric I first read about in Patriot Games. And #4 buckshot is not a good perpetrator; if you're a Facklerite you want 16 inches (in case you have to shoot thought an arm to reach the vitals). Birdshot is obviously much more iffy. As for intimidation, well, some people don't intimidate worth a damn, although I agree a Europellet dispenser is not a good choice unless their are other constraints; me, I stick with .45 ACP in M1911s (primarily because the gun has fit my hands like a glove since I was a teen). It's true, in some areas of the US a shotgun is your best option because of restrictions on handgun ownership, but this is not true for the vast majority of the country, land and people. Like, outside of Hawaii? and several of the Northeast states. No stock == not very accurate in most people's hands, negating the aiming advantages there while indeed mitigating to some degree the issues if it gets up close and personal. Me, I keep my police configuration with full length stock 870 in my safe, loaded with #1 buckshot, which all things being equal is 40% better than #00 (lots more pellets with sufficient penetration). I bought it while living in Massachusetts, one of those states where getting a handgun is difficult to impossible in the more urban areas, now I've got it mostly in case I need a literal riot gun. And if, like in most of the nation (although absent a saving throw with the Supremes it looks doomed in California), you can carry concealed, there's a lot to be said for learning well only one type of gun, i.e. not just a particular semi-auto handgun model, but ones in a family that are more and less suited for carry and home defense, that have the same controls, ergonomics, etc. E.g. there's lots of models to choose from in the Glock family.
    - jqm 12y ago
      Interesting article. I would note a couple of points though... 1)Notice the drywall collapsing? That's what is going to happen to a person getting shot at close range with a 12 gauge.. even with birdshot. It would be something like getting smacked with a sledgehammer. I'm less interested in penetrating vitals than flat out knocking the person down. A person who's arm, or even lungs are penetrated cleanly by a high caliber round might still be functional for a bit... functional enough to shoot back. 2)Even though the #4 buck did penetrate multiple layers of drywall in this guys test, what is the lethality after 2 or 3 layers? You say yourself that #4 buck is less likely to penetrate vitals in the first place. Your 45 on the other hand will likely easily penetrate multiple layers of drywall, then completely penetrate the person on the other side. Anyway, different strokes and all that. A firearm is a good home defense weapon in general. Always nice to meet another person who doesn't feel owning a firearm makes one a Neanderthal of some kind. Where I live, I wouldn't be without one in the home. I sleep much better at night and feel I could protect my girlfriend and our belongings against invasion. I also have a number of other firearms including military type rifles, hunting rifles and some handguns, but the shotgun is the one I keep in bedroom for defense.

12 gauge shotgun

by jlaws 12y ago

12 gauge shotgun

hga 12y ago

Unless you live in an awful place which doesn't allow handguns for self-defense, shotguns tend to be a pretty poor choice for home defense. Confined spaces make them unwieldy, and it's frighteningly easy for an adversary to grab it outside of your grip and use the bigger lever arm to twist it out of your hands, as I demonstrated a few years ago to a nephew who's bigger and much younger and more fit than I am. Normal self-defense handguns are much easier to retain, and not quite so overpowered.

jqm 12y ago
I very strongly disagree. I believe a shotgun is very much the best home defense weapon. Most people are poor shots with a handgun, especially if woken up in the middle of the night. A shotgun is a point in the general direction and shoot kind of thing. It also has a lot more stopping power than a handgun. Also, with a shotgun, you can use larger gauge bird shot or something like #4 buck shot and it is less likely to penetrate walls and hurt someone you didn't intend. A 12 gauge pump shotgun is also an intimidating looking and sounding weapon. Much more so than something like a 9mm handgun. Finally, the laws regarding shotguns for many area of the US are likely to be much less restrictive than on handguns. I understand your comment about the unwieldiness of shotguns, but in my particular case, my shotgun has double pistol grips and no stock. I would be much less concerned about loosing control of it than I would a pistol. I have a top mounted light that triggers when the front pistol grip is grasped. It is (almost) as short as the law allows... the entire weapon is just over 2 feet long (28 inches to be exact). I hope I never have to use it in defense or worse yet, shoot to kill someone. For this reason I have 5 shells in the chamber. The first two are birdshot... deadly at close range, less likely to be so at a further range. Then I have two rounds of #4 buck, then a slug. I have 5 more rounds of #4 buck in holders at the top. I've considered having the first two rounds rubber like the police use.
- hga 12y ago
  A shotgun is a point in the general direction and shoot kind of thing. Now, I have to admit I haven't patterned any shotgun at close range, but everything I've read and seen says at home defense ranges you have to aim them with almost as much care as a rifle, the pattern expands rather slowly, even with cylinder choke (no choke). And I know from too much wingshooting that at range you have to be pretty precise as well. A quick check with Google came up with http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/ http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-me... which doesn't fill me with confidence in the lack of interior house construction penetration of #4 buck. Note, per the above, that the pattern at 12 feet was 3.5 inches, which matches pretty well the 1 inch spread/yard metric I first read about in Patriot Games. And #4 buckshot is not a good perpetrator; if you're a Facklerite you want 16 inches (in case you have to shoot thought an arm to reach the vitals). Birdshot is obviously much more iffy. As for intimidation, well, some people don't intimidate worth a damn, although I agree a Europellet dispenser is not a good choice unless their are other constraints; me, I stick with .45 ACP in M1911s (primarily because the gun has fit my hands like a glove since I was a teen). It's true, in some areas of the US a shotgun is your best option because of restrictions on handgun ownership, but this is not true for the vast majority of the country, land and people. Like, outside of Hawaii? and several of the Northeast states. No stock == not very accurate in most people's hands, negating the aiming advantages there while indeed mitigating to some degree the issues if it gets up close and personal. Me, I keep my police configuration with full length stock 870 in my safe, loaded with #1 buckshot, which all things being equal is 40% better than #00 (lots more pellets with sufficient penetration). I bought it while living in Massachusetts, one of those states where getting a handgun is difficult to impossible in the more urban areas, now I've got it mostly in case I need a literal riot gun. And if, like in most of the nation (although absent a saving throw with the Supremes it looks doomed in California), you can carry concealed, there's a lot to be said for learning well only one type of gun, i.e. not just a particular semi-auto handgun model, but ones in a family that are more and less suited for carry and home defense, that have the same controls, ergonomics, etc. E.g. there's lots of models to choose from in the Glock family.
  - jqm 12y ago
    Interesting article. I would note a couple of points though... 1)Notice the drywall collapsing? That's what is going to happen to a person getting shot at close range with a 12 gauge.. even with birdshot. It would be something like getting smacked with a sledgehammer. I'm less interested in penetrating vitals than flat out knocking the person down. A person who's arm, or even lungs are penetrated cleanly by a high caliber round might still be functional for a bit... functional enough to shoot back. 2)Even though the #4 buck did penetrate multiple layers of drywall in this guys test, what is the lethality after 2 or 3 layers? You say yourself that #4 buck is less likely to penetrate vitals in the first place. Your 45 on the other hand will likely easily penetrate multiple layers of drywall, then completely penetrate the person on the other side. Anyway, different strokes and all that. A firearm is a good home defense weapon in general. Always nice to meet another person who doesn't feel owning a firearm makes one a Neanderthal of some kind. Where I live, I wouldn't be without one in the home. I sleep much better at night and feel I could protect my girlfriend and our belongings against invasion. I also have a number of other firearms including military type rifles, hunting rifles and some handguns, but the shotgun is the one I keep in bedroom for defense.