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Whilst I dislike Beats, I admire them a lot. They entered a market where every company was focusing on sound quality first, aesthetics second and they came in w

Whilst I dislike Beats, I admire them a lot. They entered a market where every company was focusing on sound quality first, aesthetics second and they came in with a new take: headphones should look good (I actually dislike the style but a lot of young people seem to love it), and should have a lot of bass to make certain types of music - music listened to by young people - sound good (again, I dislike this but many people love their sound). hellbanTHIS comments that he lost a lot of respect for Apple when they bought Beats. Initially, I did too, but having learnt more about the company, I think it's a perfect fit. A lot of people say that you shouldn't buy a Mac because you can buy a Windows machine with the same spec. Often, they're right. But they're also missing the point completely - you don't buy a Mac for the memory, the CPU, the SSD - you buy it for the experience, the "it just works", and for how nice the hardware is. Beats is the exact same thing. People aren't buying the headphones for the sound quality, they're buying it for everything else. Again, I'm no fan of Beats. But somewhere like Hacker News, we ought to admire their ingenuity in taking over a market where the existing players had completely ignored (and frankly, seemed oblivious to the presence of) a large untapped audience.

lentil_soup 12y ago
I agree, Apple is the perfect fit for something like that. They've always taken "boring" hardware and made it a fashion/status statement. They've done this with PCs, phones, music players and now headphones.
- mironathetin 12y ago
  Hey, but apple computers have a great operating system and they do perform very well. Now read about the comparison of beats with other headphones - or listen yourself - and tell me where the match is? While Apple stuff has become a fashion statement, it also performs. Apple products look good because they are very well designed and made. Beats on the other hand don't perform, at least not sound quality wise. And they are certainly not very well made. Carefully designed, this may be true. The better comparison for beats would be H&M (or Zara, or Mango or whatever is fashionable now). Cheap fashion that attracts easily, to throw away.
  - 72deluxe 12y ago
    Oddly though, Beats are nowhere near cheap! For the daft money they throw at headphones with an inline EQ, they could get some great Beyerdynamic headphones that sound brilliant. Fashion over functionality. EDIT: Yep, I missed the point! Functionality = fashion. You can clearly tell I am not fashionable.
    - dagw 12y ago
      You're completely missing the point. Fashion is the functionality.
      - mironathetin 12y ago
        You nailed it: for beats, fashion is the functionality indeed.
    - mironathetin 12y ago
      "Oddly though, Beats are nowhere near cheap!" Point taken. True. Select an expensive fashion company instead.
    - keithpeter 12y ago
      Beyerdynamic headphones are chunky, resilient, and you can buy spare parts and effectively replace the whole headset piece by piece. But they are not ergonomic for city walking/metro/bus/train. Lots of trailing bits of metal &c depending on model. And many models are high impedance (200 Ohm/400 Ohm) so less useful for portable devices with limited voltage swing. So my point is: not just fashion. Suitability for job as well.
  - lentil_soup 12y ago
    Hehe yeah, was worried my comment would come off like that, not what I meant. Apple products of course perform very well, but they also share that fashion and design edge that these headphones seem to have.
  - mercer 12y ago
    Is that really true though? From what I gather Beats are a step up from most headphones non-audiophiles traditionally use, and generally on par with headphones of around 80 bucks. Which is definitely better than kind of earbuds/headphones I and most people tend(ed) to buy who don't really think about this kind of stuff. I think the comparison with Apple makes sense, looking at it that way. As a 'technophile' I used to pay more for my laptop (Dell, at that point) than most people around me. They would work on really crappy laptops, curse how slow or loud or hot they were, but stick with them and not spend a premium on something better. Apple changed that, and made it 'fashionable' to spend a bit more to get, at the very least, a mid-range laptop. Those who did get one understood the benefits after the fact. Beats are similar. They might not be 'great' to audiophiles, or worth their money, relatively, but for many people they are the first experience of, at least, decent sound.
creshal 12y ago
> certain types of music - music listened to by young people Can I feel old now? Where's my lawn? > People aren't buying the headphones for the sound quality, they're buying it for everything else. I find this worrying, really. Are we so desperate to consume that we're willing to buy shit just for sake of buying?
- icebraining 12y ago
  It's not for the sake of buying; it's for the sake of showing them off. Like we did with jewelry for millennia.
  - coldpie 12y ago
    Or the ultimate in form-over-function: women's footwear.
    - blowski 12y ago
      And ties - what purpose do they serve other than social signals?
      - mironathetin 12y ago
        "And ties - what purpose do they serve other than social signals?" Here is an answer: <exaggerate>I am the slave of my company, that's why I wear an expensive, totally useless thing around my neck, that lets me sweat in summer and breathe hard all year round. My company asks that and I do what they say, because I always do what everybody does. And I rather shit my pants than to hold the minority opinion :o)))).</exaggerate> Well, you are right, its also a social signal.
        blowski 12y ago
        Depends on the quality. A $300 silk tie sends a different signal to a $2 tie from a supermarket.
sjwright 12y ago
I completely agree. The typical Beats buyer who just want nice looking headphones that sound kickin'. Shame on their competitors for failing to understand their audience. (And personally I wouldn't put much stock in what the audiophiles think. The homoeopathy-grade "facts" and "truths" which pervade much of the audiophile world are in my opinion far more contemptible.)
- s54b32dd 12y ago
  But, really, most audio companies were never properly positioned to offer the type of product that Beats has anyway. Bose could probably have made the connection, as could a few other broader electronic brands (Sony, Panasonic, etc.), but most brands that are primarily focused on speakers/headphones operate by courting audiophiles, because traditionally that's where the money has been. Certainly, Beats has done an excellent job of generating a brand image and marketing a product. However, many other companies in the headphone market would have had a challenge doing the same, because if they were to court the casual listener market, they may risk losing the traditional audiophile market.
  - sjwright 12y ago
    True, though nothing was stopping any established company from creating a new brand to differentiate markets.
Brakenshire 12y ago
The comparison with Mac seems really spurious. Apple, at its best, redesigns hardware and software to find whole new ways of interacting intuitively with really very complicated computing devices. That is not comparable to making some headphones which are bass heavy. Beats is like Apple, but with its objective value stripped out. i.e. just the fashion and marketing without any of the engineering excellence and innovation.
- kaolinite 12y ago
  That's a good point. Maybe the comparison with Mac wasn't such a good one. Nevertheless, I still think there's something to admire from a business perspective.
- angdis 12y ago
  I have to say, however, that the latest Apple earbuds are VERY POOR "one size for all" design, a clear step backwards for a very personal interface.
- mercer 12y ago
  While not the best comparison, there is a bit of truth in it. I consider myself a discerning 'consumer' and I've switched to an Android phone, away from the iPhone, a few years ago. I switched back to iPhone last year. And while the main reasons were functional (better camera, an OS that I prefer), aesthetics and the 'feel' of the iPhone (5S, in my case) definitely played a role. I don't think it's a stretch to say that these factors are even more important to the non-tech crowd. Fashion is important enough to many people that it can be considered part of 'objective value'.
AndrewUnmuted 12y ago
You should check your premise. With companies like Bose and Bang & Olufson around for several decades, it's hard to imagine how your claim that they entered a market where every company was focused on sound quality first could be true. The ingenious thing that Beats by Dre did was market the Bose sound and product to fans of hip hop, R&B, and pop electronica. All three of these genres, with their particularly die-hard listening audience, had never been able to be penetrated by a prior audio product besides extremely cheap Skullcandy offerings and the like. The profit margins are considerably higher on a $300 pair of headphones than on a $25 pair of headphones - especially if the Skullcandy and Beats by Dre options are capable of providing an equally-high fidelity output. As an audio engineer, this of course makes me sad. But it is indeed genius.
- tonylemesmer 12y ago
  Funnily enough Bose are a tad unhappy about how successful Beats by Dre has become and are suing them: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/caseys-pch-sued-by-bose-over-beats-headphones-30531392.html http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/caseys-pch-sue... Beats by Dre are made by PCH International, a contract manufacturer.
- dvfjsdhgfv 12y ago
  it's Olufsen
picks_at_nits 12y ago
> Whilst I dislike Beats, I admire them a lot. They entered a market where every company was focusing on sound quality first Haven’t people been having this exact same conversation about Bose for decades? Shitty quality, but aesthetics, a few whizzy features, and a lot of marketing that breathlessly claims they “sound better?” Also Bang and Olufsen. Middling sound but beautiful aesthetics, and a price tag to make them the haute couture of audio? I would say that Bose spent a lot of money trying to make their headphones aesthetically pleasing, but dealt with an aging market. Younger buyers naturally view Bose as something their parents would own. It seems to me that the success of Beats really comes down to demographics. In fashion, it is difficult for a brand to jump generations, so there’s a natural opportunity for new brands to establish themselves with a younger generation. Beats did everything right to take advantage of great timing.
- 72deluxe 12y ago
  "No highs or lows? That'll be Bose!" I jest...
  - mironathetin 12y ago
    no, Bose headphones sound much better … :o)
smrtinsert 12y ago
as a consumer its ridiculous. as a technologist and nearly lifelong musician its offensive.
keithpeter 12y ago
The ergonomics seem right for walking about and catching buses/trains/trams. The Beats headphones my students sport include that socket on the headphone end so if the lead gets caught, the plug pulls out. My huge Beyerdynamic cans would represent a health and safety issue if worn outside the house and the 400 Ohm impedance is not a good match for battery powered devices. The humble Sennheiser HD201 headphones seem fairly popular for those less well-heeled students upgrading from the supplied ear-buds mind you. Lots of bang for the buck.

lentil_soup 12y ago

I agree, Apple is the perfect fit for something like that. They've always taken "boring" hardware and made it a fashion/status statement. They've done this with PCs, phones, music players and now headphones.

mironathetin 12y ago
Hey, but apple computers have a great operating system and they do perform very well. Now read about the comparison of beats with other headphones - or listen yourself - and tell me where the match is? While Apple stuff has become a fashion statement, it also performs. Apple products look good because they are very well designed and made. Beats on the other hand don't perform, at least not sound quality wise. And they are certainly not very well made. Carefully designed, this may be true. The better comparison for beats would be H&M (or Zara, or Mango or whatever is fashionable now). Cheap fashion that attracts easily, to throw away.
- 72deluxe 12y ago
  Oddly though, Beats are nowhere near cheap! For the daft money they throw at headphones with an inline EQ, they could get some great Beyerdynamic headphones that sound brilliant. Fashion over functionality. EDIT: Yep, I missed the point! Functionality = fashion. You can clearly tell I am not fashionable.
  - dagw 12y ago
    You're completely missing the point. Fashion is the functionality.
    - mironathetin 12y ago
      You nailed it: for beats, fashion is the functionality indeed.
  - mironathetin 12y ago
    "Oddly though, Beats are nowhere near cheap!" Point taken. True. Select an expensive fashion company instead.
  - keithpeter 12y ago
    Beyerdynamic headphones are chunky, resilient, and you can buy spare parts and effectively replace the whole headset piece by piece. But they are not ergonomic for city walking/metro/bus/train. Lots of trailing bits of metal &c depending on model. And many models are high impedance (200 Ohm/400 Ohm) so less useful for portable devices with limited voltage swing. So my point is: not just fashion. Suitability for job as well.
- lentil_soup 12y ago
  Hehe yeah, was worried my comment would come off like that, not what I meant. Apple products of course perform very well, but they also share that fashion and design edge that these headphones seem to have.
- mercer 12y ago
  Is that really true though? From what I gather Beats are a step up from most headphones non-audiophiles traditionally use, and generally on par with headphones of around 80 bucks. Which is definitely better than kind of earbuds/headphones I and most people tend(ed) to buy who don't really think about this kind of stuff. I think the comparison with Apple makes sense, looking at it that way. As a 'technophile' I used to pay more for my laptop (Dell, at that point) than most people around me. They would work on really crappy laptops, curse how slow or loud or hot they were, but stick with them and not spend a premium on something better. Apple changed that, and made it 'fashionable' to spend a bit more to get, at the very least, a mid-range laptop. Those who did get one understood the benefits after the fact. Beats are similar. They might not be 'great' to audiophiles, or worth their money, relatively, but for many people they are the first experience of, at least, decent sound.

creshal 12y ago

> certain types of music - music listened to by young people Can I feel old now? Where's my lawn? > People aren't buying the headphones for the sound quality, they're buying it for everything else. I find this worrying, really. Are we so desperate to consume that we're willing to buy shit just for sake of buying?

icebraining 12y ago
It's not for the sake of buying; it's for the sake of showing them off. Like we did with jewelry for millennia.
- coldpie 12y ago
  Or the ultimate in form-over-function: women's footwear.
  - blowski 12y ago
    And ties - what purpose do they serve other than social signals?
    - mironathetin 12y ago
      "And ties - what purpose do they serve other than social signals?" Here is an answer: <exaggerate>I am the slave of my company, that's why I wear an expensive, totally useless thing around my neck, that lets me sweat in summer and breathe hard all year round. My company asks that and I do what they say, because I always do what everybody does. And I rather shit my pants than to hold the minority opinion :o)))).</exaggerate> Well, you are right, its also a social signal.
      - blowski 12y ago
        Depends on the quality. A $300 silk tie sends a different signal to a $2 tie from a supermarket.

sjwright 12y ago

I completely agree. The typical Beats buyer who just want nice looking headphones that sound kickin'. Shame on their competitors for failing to understand their audience. (And personally I wouldn't put much stock in what the audiophiles think. The homoeopathy-grade "facts" and "truths" which pervade much of the audiophile world are in my opinion far more contemptible.)

s54b32dd 12y ago
But, really, most audio companies were never properly positioned to offer the type of product that Beats has anyway. Bose could probably have made the connection, as could a few other broader electronic brands (Sony, Panasonic, etc.), but most brands that are primarily focused on speakers/headphones operate by courting audiophiles, because traditionally that's where the money has been. Certainly, Beats has done an excellent job of generating a brand image and marketing a product. However, many other companies in the headphone market would have had a challenge doing the same, because if they were to court the casual listener market, they may risk losing the traditional audiophile market.
- sjwright 12y ago
  True, though nothing was stopping any established company from creating a new brand to differentiate markets.

Brakenshire 12y ago

The comparison with Mac seems really spurious. Apple, at its best, redesigns hardware and software to find whole new ways of interacting intuitively with really very complicated computing devices. That is not comparable to making some headphones which are bass heavy. Beats is like Apple, but with its objective value stripped out. i.e. just the fashion and marketing without any of the engineering excellence and innovation.

kaolinite 12y ago
That's a good point. Maybe the comparison with Mac wasn't such a good one. Nevertheless, I still think there's something to admire from a business perspective.
angdis 12y ago
I have to say, however, that the latest Apple earbuds are VERY POOR "one size for all" design, a clear step backwards for a very personal interface.
mercer 12y ago
While not the best comparison, there is a bit of truth in it. I consider myself a discerning 'consumer' and I've switched to an Android phone, away from the iPhone, a few years ago. I switched back to iPhone last year. And while the main reasons were functional (better camera, an OS that I prefer), aesthetics and the 'feel' of the iPhone (5S, in my case) definitely played a role. I don't think it's a stretch to say that these factors are even more important to the non-tech crowd. Fashion is important enough to many people that it can be considered part of 'objective value'.

AndrewUnmuted 12y ago

You should check your premise. With companies like Bose and Bang & Olufson around for several decades, it's hard to imagine how your claim that they entered a market where every company was focused on sound quality first could be true. The ingenious thing that Beats by Dre did was market the Bose sound and product to fans of hip hop, R&B, and pop electronica. All three of these genres, with their particularly die-hard listening audience, had never been able to be penetrated by a prior audio product besides extremely cheap Skullcandy offerings and the like. The profit margins are considerably higher on a $300 pair of headphones than on a $25 pair of headphones - especially if the Skullcandy and Beats by Dre options are capable of providing an equally-high fidelity output. As an audio engineer, this of course makes me sad. But it is indeed genius.

tonylemesmer 12y ago
Funnily enough Bose are a tad unhappy about how successful Beats by Dre has become and are suing them: http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/caseys-pch-sued-by-bose-over-beats-headphones-30531392.html http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/caseys-pch-sue... Beats by Dre are made by PCH International, a contract manufacturer.
dvfjsdhgfv 12y ago
it's Olufsen

picks_at_nits 12y ago

> Whilst I dislike Beats, I admire them a lot. They entered a market where every company was focusing on sound quality first Haven’t people been having this exact same conversation about Bose for decades? Shitty quality, but aesthetics, a few whizzy features, and a lot of marketing that breathlessly claims they “sound better?” Also Bang and Olufsen. Middling sound but beautiful aesthetics, and a price tag to make them the haute couture of audio? I would say that Bose spent a lot of money trying to make their headphones aesthetically pleasing, but dealt with an aging market. Younger buyers naturally view Bose as something their parents would own. It seems to me that the success of Beats really comes down to demographics. In fashion, it is difficult for a brand to jump generations, so there’s a natural opportunity for new brands to establish themselves with a younger generation. Beats did everything right to take advantage of great timing.

72deluxe 12y ago
"No highs or lows? That'll be Bose!" I jest...
- mironathetin 12y ago
  no, Bose headphones sound much better … :o)

smrtinsert 12y ago

as a consumer its ridiculous. as a technologist and nearly lifelong musician its offensive.

keithpeter 12y ago

The ergonomics seem right for walking about and catching buses/trains/trams. The Beats headphones my students sport include that socket on the headphone end so if the lead gets caught, the plug pulls out. My huge Beyerdynamic cans would represent a health and safety issue if worn outside the house and the 400 Ohm impedance is not a good match for battery powered devices. The humble Sennheiser HD201 headphones seem fairly popular for those less well-heeled students upgrading from the supplied ear-buds mind you. Lots of bang for the buck.