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And I disagree with you here. Writing declarative HTML and writing a simple interactive computer game are two activities that could not be more different. Like

And I disagree with you here. Writing declarative HTML and writing a simple interactive computer game are two activities that could not be more different. Like it or not, the act of programming has become much more difficult than it once was. 1988 I could reboot my Apple IIgs, hold down a couple of keys, and I could start writing a BASIC program immediately.

tsuraan 17y ago
And in 1995, I could write interactive (quasi) graphical games on my TI-81. Without rebooting. At the time, a TI-81 was pretty fancy, but I've seen plenty that leads me to believe that nearly every kid today has a TI-83 for their math class. It's not quite basic, but it's certainly programming, and it's just as easy and accessible as an Apple used to be.
- swannodette 17y ago
  Kids are not fooled. Programming a computer and calculator are also not the same thing. While I enjoyed hacking on my graphing calculator as well, the limitations of the calculator (no color, small screen, no keyboard) made it fairly limited for learning any broader concepts about programming.
  - iamwil 17y ago
    The point is access, not completeness. Kids have access to more devices that are easy to program, just less so their computers.
- sosuke 17y ago
  TI-83 and the manual where the ways that I started in programming. I would most likely try to spark my own kids interest in programming the same way. The greatest thing about programming on the TI-83 was that I could write programs anywhere. I took that calculator with me everywhere and would even program while we were out at a restaurant or after completing an assignment in class.
turtle4 17y ago
I don't see that it is that much harder now. Boot your mac, open a terminal, type python, and start programming. Does it take one more step? Maybe, but it is a joke to say that is somehow more difficult.
- swannodette 17y ago
  Show me a tutorial on Python graphics on OS X that doesn't require installing an external library or learning about a really complicated graphics framework (Quartz 2D) and I'll believe what you just wrote. Apple basic graphics was one of two commands: GR or HGR
  - stevejohnson 17y ago
    Your requirement that there be no external libraries is unfair. It's perfectly valid for a tutorial to start with "Download this package and run the installer," which is easier than any actual programming the reader might do. There are plenty of great tutorials for PyGame and pyglet. The main issue is that you have to open a terminal. If you look past Python, Scratch provides a very low barrier to entry for this sort of thing.
    - gloob 17y ago
      Your requirement that there be no external libraries is unfair. If the question being discussed is "How likely is an 8-year-old to randomly discover programming", it's not unfair in the slightest. Installation of anything is a huge barrier to discoverability.
      - whatusername 17y ago
        Random discovery is so difficult. If only there was an engine of some sort that we could search things with. We could call this engine of search - Bing!
  - scott_s 17y ago
    But you had to learn about those from somewhere. That's no different, in practice, from today.

tsuraan 17y ago

And in 1995, I could write interactive (quasi) graphical games on my TI-81. Without rebooting. At the time, a TI-81 was pretty fancy, but I've seen plenty that leads me to believe that nearly every kid today has a TI-83 for their math class. It's not quite basic, but it's certainly programming, and it's just as easy and accessible as an Apple used to be.

swannodette 17y ago
Kids are not fooled. Programming a computer and calculator are also not the same thing. While I enjoyed hacking on my graphing calculator as well, the limitations of the calculator (no color, small screen, no keyboard) made it fairly limited for learning any broader concepts about programming.
- iamwil 17y ago
  The point is access, not completeness. Kids have access to more devices that are easy to program, just less so their computers.
sosuke 17y ago
TI-83 and the manual where the ways that I started in programming. I would most likely try to spark my own kids interest in programming the same way. The greatest thing about programming on the TI-83 was that I could write programs anywhere. I took that calculator with me everywhere and would even program while we were out at a restaurant or after completing an assignment in class.

turtle4 17y ago

I don't see that it is that much harder now. Boot your mac, open a terminal, type python, and start programming. Does it take one more step? Maybe, but it is a joke to say that is somehow more difficult.

swannodette 17y ago
Show me a tutorial on Python graphics on OS X that doesn't require installing an external library or learning about a really complicated graphics framework (Quartz 2D) and I'll believe what you just wrote. Apple basic graphics was one of two commands: GR or HGR
- stevejohnson 17y ago
  Your requirement that there be no external libraries is unfair. It's perfectly valid for a tutorial to start with "Download this package and run the installer," which is easier than any actual programming the reader might do. There are plenty of great tutorials for PyGame and pyglet. The main issue is that you have to open a terminal. If you look past Python, Scratch provides a very low barrier to entry for this sort of thing.
  - gloob 17y ago
    Your requirement that there be no external libraries is unfair. If the question being discussed is "How likely is an 8-year-old to randomly discover programming", it's not unfair in the slightest. Installation of anything is a huge barrier to discoverability.
    - whatusername 17y ago
      Random discovery is so difficult. If only there was an engine of some sort that we could search things with. We could call this engine of search - Bing!
- scott_s 17y ago
  But you had to learn about those from somewhere. That's no different, in practice, from today.