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> The Nordic countries have great education systems that cost less, but they’re small. While there may be much to learn from Nordic schools, they do have the a

> The Nordic countries have great education systems that cost less, but they’re small. While there may be much to learn from Nordic schools, they do have the advantages (in education) of a smaller scale. Studies show that larger school sizes are less effective[0][1]. [0]: (PDF) http://economics.mit.edu/files/9158 http://economics.mit.edu/files/9158 [1]: (PDF) http://www.uaedreform.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Egalite-Kisida-13_Impact-of-School-Size-on-Student-Achievement_wp.pdf http://www.uaedreform.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Egalite...

ptaipale 12y ago
In Nordics, the authorities attempt to create larger schools because they think they are more effective. (I'm suspicious, though, and your references are interesting). I think that the reason for better results in Nordic schools is that they have not as many students who are unable to understand teaching language. The population is ethnically rather uniform and there is relatively strong social cohesion.
- dalke 12y ago
  Sweden has taken in a lot of immigrants. 15.9% of the population are immigrants, compared to 14.3% in the US. Most of these immigrants don't know Swedish. http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf has commentary on school sizes in Denmark. They are much smaller than in the US and UK. It describes some of the reasons that people think larger schools are better: > Policymakers often appear to prefer large schools due to scale economies associated with administrative costs. In addition large schools are generally able to offer a broader curriculum and better career prospects for teachers. This may attract more experienced and more qualified teachers. The students (and teachers) in larger schools typically come from larger geographical areas and may have a more diverse social background. To the extent that diversity and being exposed to students and teachers with different social and demographic background is a positive production factor in the human capital production function, this may be an argument for large schools. Further, in large schools it may be easier for students and teachers to change classrooms or peer groups if, for example, a match between a teacher and the students in a given class is not optimal.
mikeash 12y ago
School size has nothing to do with the scale of the overall system country-sized, though. A small education system can use a small number of large schools, and a large education can use a large number of small schools.
dalke 12y ago
I feel like there's a confusion between school size, scale, and country size. Imagine a Norway with a single high school, which is a boarding school for all of the high school students in the country. In that case Norway is small, compared to the US, and the school system is small, with a single very large high school. Or the other way around, if the average school in Sweden has 20 students per grade, while the "small" schools for NYC have ~80 students per grade (both papers use ~100 as the threshold between small and not-small), then since the population of Sweden and NYC are about the same, this would mean that Sweden would have more schools, and so work on a larger scale than NYC. Without knowing what the school sizes for the Nordic countries, I don't think you can make a conclusion from the information you presented. I found the information which closes that loop, for Denmark, at http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf : > The average school size in our sample was about 450 in 1986, decreasing to about 400 students in the middle of the 1990s (mainly due to small birth cohorts born in the 1980s) and then increasing to 450 again in 2004, The schools in that Danish study cover grades 0-9, so fall well into the "small" category. They conclude (emphasis is mine) > With these reservations in mind, we find that for students attending grade 9 in Danish public schools, school size tends to have no effect or even a positive effect on educational outcomes and earnings later in life, at the age of 30. This result is different from the results found in a number of studies from mainly the UK and the US. However, Danish schools are on average much smaller than schools in the US and the UK. The average school size in this study which covers almost all public schools with grade 9 in Denmark was about 460 students. Another interesting result is that the positive effects of school size tend to be larger for boys when we consider educational outcomes like the probability of completing high school or a vocational education and training program, and for children who have fathers with a low education level. Thus, students who are traditionally considered more vulnerable seem to benefit from larger schools. Finally, part of the non-negative or positive school size effect seems to be driven by schools in urban areas contrary to rural areas.
digi_owl 12y ago
The problem is likely not so much the size of the schools, but the size of the classes. Never mind that at least in Norway there have over the years developed a perverse incentive to transport kids for hours to centralized schools because the transport costs are covered by a different administrative tier than the schools themselves. Thus a few large schools supposedly save on administration and maintenance costs by punting the transport costs onto a different office.

ptaipale 12y ago

In Nordics, the authorities attempt to create larger schools because they think they are more effective. (I'm suspicious, though, and your references are interesting). I think that the reason for better results in Nordic schools is that they have not as many students who are unable to understand teaching language. The population is ethnically rather uniform and there is relatively strong social cohesion.

dalke 12y ago
Sweden has taken in a lot of immigrants. 15.9% of the population are immigrants, compared to 14.3% in the US. Most of these immigrants don't know Swedish. http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf has commentary on school sizes in Denmark. They are much smaller than in the US and UK. It describes some of the reasons that people think larger schools are better: > Policymakers often appear to prefer large schools due to scale economies associated with administrative costs. In addition large schools are generally able to offer a broader curriculum and better career prospects for teachers. This may attract more experienced and more qualified teachers. The students (and teachers) in larger schools typically come from larger geographical areas and may have a more diverse social background. To the extent that diversity and being exposed to students and teachers with different social and demographic background is a positive production factor in the human capital production function, this may be an argument for large schools. Further, in large schools it may be easier for students and teachers to change classrooms or peer groups if, for example, a match between a teacher and the students in a given class is not optimal.

mikeash 12y ago

School size has nothing to do with the scale of the overall system country-sized, though. A small education system can use a small number of large schools, and a large education can use a large number of small schools.

dalke 12y ago

I feel like there's a confusion between school size, scale, and country size. Imagine a Norway with a single high school, which is a boarding school for all of the high school students in the country. In that case Norway is small, compared to the US, and the school system is small, with a single very large high school. Or the other way around, if the average school in Sweden has 20 students per grade, while the "small" schools for NYC have ~80 students per grade (both papers use ~100 as the threshold between small and not-small), then since the population of Sweden and NYC are about the same, this would mean that Sweden would have more schools, and so work on a larger scale than NYC. Without knowing what the school sizes for the Nordic countries, I don't think you can make a conclusion from the information you presented. I found the information which closes that loop, for Denmark, at http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp8032.pdf : > The average school size in our sample was about 450 in 1986, decreasing to about 400 students in the middle of the 1990s (mainly due to small birth cohorts born in the 1980s) and then increasing to 450 again in 2004, The schools in that Danish study cover grades 0-9, so fall well into the "small" category. They conclude (emphasis is mine) > With these reservations in mind, we find that for students attending grade 9 in Danish public schools, school size tends to have no effect or even a positive effect on educational outcomes and earnings later in life, at the age of 30. This result is different from the results found in a number of studies from mainly the UK and the US. However, Danish schools are on average much smaller than schools in the US and the UK. The average school size in this study which covers almost all public schools with grade 9 in Denmark was about 460 students. Another interesting result is that the positive effects of school size tend to be larger for boys when we consider educational outcomes like the probability of completing high school or a vocational education and training program, and for children who have fathers with a low education level. Thus, students who are traditionally considered more vulnerable seem to benefit from larger schools. Finally, part of the non-negative or positive school size effect seems to be driven by schools in urban areas contrary to rural areas.

digi_owl 12y ago

The problem is likely not so much the size of the schools, but the size of the classes. Never mind that at least in Norway there have over the years developed a perverse incentive to transport kids for hours to centralized schools because the transport costs are covered by a different administrative tier than the schools themselves. Thus a few large schools supposedly save on administration and maintenance costs by punting the transport costs onto a different office.