3 ms·

Its a veiled attack at cultures not based on modern western values as being not only inferior, but despicable and immoral. It is racism in its purest form.

DanielBMarkham 19y ago
Maybe I'm a complete idiot, but you are not making any sense to me at all. Nazi Germany was a culture, a society. It was a brutal, horrible thing that should be despised for the many faults it had. Mongol society was a barbaric, violent, awful society and culture that should be shunned. Paleolithic tribal societies were also brutish, superstitious, harsh, and murderous towards themselves and outsiders. Many were also cannibals. How is this in any way disparaging Germans, Mongolians, or people who may have come from a tribal background? E-gad, man. We have to be able to make comparisons of how various things work. Some cultures work better than others. Sure, stupid people will extrapolate that to say that the _people_ in those cultures are good or bad. But stupid people do stupid things. That's no reason at all to give up on our duty as sentient beings to make comparisons and judgments. We don't give up living in houses simply because some stupid people burn them down. Why would we give up the Enlightenment because some cultures never grasped it?
- run4yourlives 19y ago
  I can't comment at all on the Nazis, as there is too much negative connotation to argue that effectively. However: >Mongol society was a barbaric, violent, awful society and culture that should be shunned. Bullshit. Mongol society was different than western society. They had a tremendously effective military, but they were also known for tremendous religious tolerance, placing an importance on education and arts (teachers, lawyers and artists paid no taxes). It had basically no crime within the empire. They built the largest empire the world has ever seen. If you honestly think they did that by walking around like jackbooted thugs, you sir are a fool. Of course, they weren't perfect, but neither are we. To say something like the Mogols were "a barbaric, violent, awful society and culture that should be shunned" while blissfully ignoring the faults of our own culture is woefully ignorant and arrogant at the same time. >Why would we give up the Enlightenment because some cultures never grasped it? I'm not asking you to. I suggesting that the Enlightenment is but one path to the destination.
  - DanielBMarkham 19y ago
    You have made my day. Thanks for the laugh. I'm saying that having tens of thousands of people show up on horseback ready to invade Vienna isn't exactly a calling card for Mongol politeness. Sure the Mongols did good things! Tell you what? Let's take apart the good and bad things and compare and contrast them with other cultures, shall we? And maybe, after doing that for a while, we can come up with a list of attributes that make cultures better or worse. Which is exactly we started this conversation. LOL "Of course they weren't perfect, but neither are we." Okey dokey. Do you understand that such statements completely alleviate the speaker of any obligation to continue analysis? Ted Bundy had a lot of faults, but who among us is perfect? Jack The Ripper may have done some bad things, but aren't we all flawed in some way? Cannibals ate your parents, but hey, don't we all get a little hungry now and then? I could go on, but I honestly don't mean to have fun at your expense. Yes, there are good and bad things anywhere. Our duty as intelligent people is to take apart what works and what doesn't and keep building on what works. Not to just cast an unfocused eye on the world and say something like "looks all about the same to me. We all are in our journeys on our own paths." -- these sentiments, while sounding great, are not helpful to either us or other people. I'm not talking about enlightenment, I'm talking about The Enlightenment -- the awakening in the west that things like freedom, rights, rationalism, and an open society were prerequisites to change and growth, and that societies that changed and grew were happier places to be. The world keeps changing -- it is not something that is up for debate. Societies/Cultures that embrace certain values are able to change along with it. Those that do not are not. It's been that way since recorded history.
    - run4yourlives 19y ago
      >the awakening in the west that things like freedom, rights, rationalism, and an open society were prerequisites to change and growth, and that societies that changed and grew were happier places to be. Is that what you tell the people of Iraq? How about Iran? How about Nicaragua? Vietnam? You're comparing living inside an empire to being conquered by one and have the gall to suggest that you are morally superior? Instead of making my day, you've got me crying. For someone who speaks highly of the Enlightenment, you sure have a long way to go in understanding the principles.

DanielBMarkham 19y ago

Maybe I'm a complete idiot, but you are not making any sense to me at all. Nazi Germany was a culture, a society. It was a brutal, horrible thing that should be despised for the many faults it had. Mongol society was a barbaric, violent, awful society and culture that should be shunned. Paleolithic tribal societies were also brutish, superstitious, harsh, and murderous towards themselves and outsiders. Many were also cannibals. How is this in any way disparaging Germans, Mongolians, or people who may have come from a tribal background? E-gad, man. We have to be able to make comparisons of how various things work. Some cultures work better than others. Sure, stupid people will extrapolate that to say that the _people_ in those cultures are good or bad. But stupid people do stupid things. That's no reason at all to give up on our duty as sentient beings to make comparisons and judgments. We don't give up living in houses simply because some stupid people burn them down. Why would we give up the Enlightenment because some cultures never grasped it?

run4yourlives 19y ago
I can't comment at all on the Nazis, as there is too much negative connotation to argue that effectively. However: >Mongol society was a barbaric, violent, awful society and culture that should be shunned. Bullshit. Mongol society was different than western society. They had a tremendously effective military, but they were also known for tremendous religious tolerance, placing an importance on education and arts (teachers, lawyers and artists paid no taxes). It had basically no crime within the empire. They built the largest empire the world has ever seen. If you honestly think they did that by walking around like jackbooted thugs, you sir are a fool. Of course, they weren't perfect, but neither are we. To say something like the Mogols were "a barbaric, violent, awful society and culture that should be shunned" while blissfully ignoring the faults of our own culture is woefully ignorant and arrogant at the same time. >Why would we give up the Enlightenment because some cultures never grasped it? I'm not asking you to. I suggesting that the Enlightenment is but one path to the destination.
- DanielBMarkham 19y ago
  You have made my day. Thanks for the laugh. I'm saying that having tens of thousands of people show up on horseback ready to invade Vienna isn't exactly a calling card for Mongol politeness. Sure the Mongols did good things! Tell you what? Let's take apart the good and bad things and compare and contrast them with other cultures, shall we? And maybe, after doing that for a while, we can come up with a list of attributes that make cultures better or worse. Which is exactly we started this conversation. LOL "Of course they weren't perfect, but neither are we." Okey dokey. Do you understand that such statements completely alleviate the speaker of any obligation to continue analysis? Ted Bundy had a lot of faults, but who among us is perfect? Jack The Ripper may have done some bad things, but aren't we all flawed in some way? Cannibals ate your parents, but hey, don't we all get a little hungry now and then? I could go on, but I honestly don't mean to have fun at your expense. Yes, there are good and bad things anywhere. Our duty as intelligent people is to take apart what works and what doesn't and keep building on what works. Not to just cast an unfocused eye on the world and say something like "looks all about the same to me. We all are in our journeys on our own paths." -- these sentiments, while sounding great, are not helpful to either us or other people. I'm not talking about enlightenment, I'm talking about The Enlightenment -- the awakening in the west that things like freedom, rights, rationalism, and an open society were prerequisites to change and growth, and that societies that changed and grew were happier places to be. The world keeps changing -- it is not something that is up for debate. Societies/Cultures that embrace certain values are able to change along with it. Those that do not are not. It's been that way since recorded history.
  - run4yourlives 19y ago
    >the awakening in the west that things like freedom, rights, rationalism, and an open society were prerequisites to change and growth, and that societies that changed and grew were happier places to be. Is that what you tell the people of Iraq? How about Iran? How about Nicaragua? Vietnam? You're comparing living inside an empire to being conquered by one and have the gall to suggest that you are morally superior? Instead of making my day, you've got me crying. For someone who speaks highly of the Enlightenment, you sure have a long way to go in understanding the principles.