6 ms·

Thanks. I realize I may have sounded like I was definitively accusing you of lying or manipulating us. I'm not, but a more accurate description would be that

Thanks. I realize I may have sounded like I was definitively accusing you of lying or manipulating us. I'm not, but a more accurate description would be that so far your behavior looks suspicious and you haven't given very solid information. Although I tend to "side with" Snowden, I would not be surprised if there is more to him than meets the eye, so I would be interested in seeing if he has a history of grandstanding. (On the other hand, as others have pointed out, if what he has released is correct and against the will of the citizens/law/human rights, does it really matter if the disclosure fits a pattern of attention-seeking from the messenger?) P.S. What may be irking some commenters is that HN threads are so "time-sensitive." In another hour this thread will probably slip off the front page and out of mind. So some people may be anxious to see a source before that happens. Or they downvoted so agressively, so that unsourced claims will be seen by fewer people during the small period of time the thread is active, while it could legitimately take you a few days to find a source.

irishcoffee 12y ago
This isn't the article I was looking for specifically, but this is what I was trying to say when I was talking about him in his younger years. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/1/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009... I'm still looking for the specific article, but this works in a pinch. He is very open and caviler about being the moral police. He decides what is right and wrong, and flip-flops his ideals when it serves him. Edit: another link. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-participated-in-online-chats-nsa-leaks/2462461/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-partic...
- Karunamon 12y ago
  I'm going to keep asking this until you answer it: Why do you feel that Snowden's alleged attention-seeking behavior is more important than the content of the leaks?
  - irishcoffee 12y ago
    His attention-seeking, which you've latched on to, was one example of his personality. The links I posted show more of what I was trying to convey. He marches to the beat of his own moral code and changed it on a whim whenever it served his needs. I brought all that up to say, he leaked for his own benefit, or out of anger for being wronged, or something. What he leaked, whatever you've seen, is what he wanted you to see. He painted his own picture to the world, and the people he wronged can't set the record straight because of national security concerns. Its an unfair fight. Everyone is convinced NSA is out to get them, to monitor them, invade their privacy. throwing the law out the window and carte blanche having their way with whatever data they want. NSA I'm sure, has a huge legal team. Before they worked at NSA, the lawyers passed the bar. They took an oath to uphold the law. They wouldn't just let people break the law, if for no other reason than, they might get caught. I'm also pretty sure each DoD entity has an IG department. If someone does something wrong, and gets caught, they get in a lot of trouble. There is a whole series of checks and balances in place. If something is wrong, its the law you have a beef with. And again to answer your question, he leaked what he wanted, painted the picture he wanted, manipulated people to believe whatever he wants them to, knowing he couldn't be contradicted. He could literally say whatever he wants at this point and people gobble it up. People believe what they want, based on what he says, without ever pretending to consider the idea of possibly entertaining the idea of giving the DoD the benefit of the doubt.
    - DonHopkins 12y ago
      That still doesn't answer his question. He asked: "Why do you feel that Snowden's alleged attention-seeking behavior is more important than the content of the leaks?" You said nothing about why his behavior is more important than the content of the leaks. What's so unimportant about the content of the leaks, that you think something so trivial as your armchair psychiatric evaluation of his personality is more important than anything he leaked? "If someone does something wrong, and gets caught, they get in a lot of trouble." Did Clapper get in a lot of trouble for lying to congress under oath?
csandreasen 12y ago
Though I recognize the thread is pretty much over with, I'll add on to irishcoffee's claim... It's very important to understand what Snowden's motives in evaluating the validity of the NSA documents. None of the documents have been released in their entirety, and often times the only thing that is released is a paragraph or two, or perhaps a couple of slides. Is there enough context in the partial source material presented to back up the article's claims, or is there more to the story? There have been several times when the media released one story, only to be contradicted when they later released further portions of the same document. For example, see [1], [2] and [3]. If he's whistleblowing on these program like he claims, there's no reason to doubt the validity of the documents; if he's just a disgruntled systems administrator with an axe to grind, the documents we see may cut down to remove the context and just show us what he and Greenwald want us to see, knowing full well that the NSA generally can't provide evidence denying the claims without releasing more classified information. When you add things like claims that other writers were forbidden from criticizing or contradicting Greenwald's narrative on Snowden at the Guardian[4] and at the Intercept on other subjects[5], it adds to suspicions that we're getting a distorted view of the subject. Regarding Snowden's grandstanding, you don't even need to go all of the way back to high school to start seeing claims that don't quite mesh with reality. He lied about his qualifications to get his initial job as an NSA contractor[6] and by his own admission took the Booz Allen job specifically to gather information to leak[7]. That doesn't strike me as whistleblowing - instead of "I saw something wrong and I'm reporting it" it's instead "I'm determined to find something wrong and report it." That alone should sound sirens in everyone's head that whatever was released had a skewed perspective to it. He claimed to be a senior intelligence official, while the NSA claims he was a low-level systems administrator. If we look at his actual words, though, compare for example his description of PRISM in 2013[8] to his description of it in 2014 after all of the details were released[9]. They're so different that it's apparent to me that he didn't actually know any of the details on PRISM beforehand except for general information mixed with his own assumptions. Other sources have documented a whole litany of other contradictions in his statements ([10] for example). I've seen so many people say not to focus on Snowden, focus on the documents, but you can't fully evaluate the context of the documents without knowing his motive. Is he a heroic whistleblower like he claims, or is he a disgruntled ex-employee trying to lash out at his former employer and gain notoriety in the process through misleading disclosures? [1] http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2014/04/what-is-known-about-nsas-prism-program.html http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2014/04/what-is-known-about... (jump down to section 5, just below the 'PRISM Tasking Process' slide) [2] http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2013/11/screenshots-from-boundlessinformant-can.html http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2013/11/screenshots-from-bo... [3] http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2015/02/snowden-would-not-have-been-able-to.html http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2015/02/snowden-would-not-... [4] http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/wolff/2015/03/20/new-editor-for-guardian-newspaper/25094233/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/wolff/2015/03/... (search for 'verboten') [5] http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/02/ken-silverstein-intercept-stifled-serial-reporting-203236.html http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/02/ken-silverstein-... [6] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE95K01J20130621 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-security-sn... [7] http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa-surveillance?page=all http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-s... [8] http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-says-nsa-has-direct-access-to-tech-companies-2013-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-says-nsa-has-direct-a... (search for "We've got PRISM") [9] http://blog.ted.com/we-dont-have-to-give-up-liberty-to-have-security-edward-snowden-at-ted2014/ http://blog.ted.com/we-dont-have-to-give-up-liberty-to-have-... (search for "The NSA's own slides") [10] https://www.beaconreader.com/joshua-foust/the-edward-snowden-snow-job?ref=profile https://www.beaconreader.com/joshua-foust/the-edward-snowden...

irishcoffee 12y ago

This isn't the article I was looking for specifically, but this is what I was trying to say when I was talking about him in his younger years. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/1/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009... I'm still looking for the specific article, but this works in a pinch. He is very open and caviler about being the moral police. He decides what is right and wrong, and flip-flops his ideals when it serves him. Edit: another link. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-participated-in-online-chats-nsa-leaks/2462461/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-partic...

Karunamon 12y ago
I'm going to keep asking this until you answer it: Why do you feel that Snowden's alleged attention-seeking behavior is more important than the content of the leaks?
- irishcoffee 12y ago
  His attention-seeking, which you've latched on to, was one example of his personality. The links I posted show more of what I was trying to convey. He marches to the beat of his own moral code and changed it on a whim whenever it served his needs. I brought all that up to say, he leaked for his own benefit, or out of anger for being wronged, or something. What he leaked, whatever you've seen, is what he wanted you to see. He painted his own picture to the world, and the people he wronged can't set the record straight because of national security concerns. Its an unfair fight. Everyone is convinced NSA is out to get them, to monitor them, invade their privacy. throwing the law out the window and carte blanche having their way with whatever data they want. NSA I'm sure, has a huge legal team. Before they worked at NSA, the lawyers passed the bar. They took an oath to uphold the law. They wouldn't just let people break the law, if for no other reason than, they might get caught. I'm also pretty sure each DoD entity has an IG department. If someone does something wrong, and gets caught, they get in a lot of trouble. There is a whole series of checks and balances in place. If something is wrong, its the law you have a beef with. And again to answer your question, he leaked what he wanted, painted the picture he wanted, manipulated people to believe whatever he wants them to, knowing he couldn't be contradicted. He could literally say whatever he wants at this point and people gobble it up. People believe what they want, based on what he says, without ever pretending to consider the idea of possibly entertaining the idea of giving the DoD the benefit of the doubt.
  - DonHopkins 12y ago
    That still doesn't answer his question. He asked: "Why do you feel that Snowden's alleged attention-seeking behavior is more important than the content of the leaks?" You said nothing about why his behavior is more important than the content of the leaks. What's so unimportant about the content of the leaks, that you think something so trivial as your armchair psychiatric evaluation of his personality is more important than anything he leaked? "If someone does something wrong, and gets caught, they get in a lot of trouble." Did Clapper get in a lot of trouble for lying to congress under oath?

csandreasen 12y ago

Though I recognize the thread is pretty much over with, I'll add on to irishcoffee's claim... It's very important to understand what Snowden's motives in evaluating the validity of the NSA documents. None of the documents have been released in their entirety, and often times the only thing that is released is a paragraph or two, or perhaps a couple of slides. Is there enough context in the partial source material presented to back up the article's claims, or is there more to the story? There have been several times when the media released one story, only to be contradicted when they later released further portions of the same document. For example, see [1], [2] and [3]. If he's whistleblowing on these program like he claims, there's no reason to doubt the validity of the documents; if he's just a disgruntled systems administrator with an axe to grind, the documents we see may cut down to remove the context and just show us what he and Greenwald want us to see, knowing full well that the NSA generally can't provide evidence denying the claims without releasing more classified information. When you add things like claims that other writers were forbidden from criticizing or contradicting Greenwald's narrative on Snowden at the Guardian[4] and at the Intercept on other subjects[5], it adds to suspicions that we're getting a distorted view of the subject. Regarding Snowden's grandstanding, you don't even need to go all of the way back to high school to start seeing claims that don't quite mesh with reality. He lied about his qualifications to get his initial job as an NSA contractor[6] and by his own admission took the Booz Allen job specifically to gather information to leak[7]. That doesn't strike me as whistleblowing - instead of "I saw something wrong and I'm reporting it" it's instead "I'm determined to find something wrong and report it." That alone should sound sirens in everyone's head that whatever was released had a skewed perspective to it. He claimed to be a senior intelligence official, while the NSA claims he was a low-level systems administrator. If we look at his actual words, though, compare for example his description of PRISM in 2013[8] to his description of it in 2014 after all of the details were released[9]. They're so different that it's apparent to me that he didn't actually know any of the details on PRISM beforehand except for general information mixed with his own assumptions. Other sources have documented a whole litany of other contradictions in his statements ([10] for example). I've seen so many people say not to focus on Snowden, focus on the documents, but you can't fully evaluate the context of the documents without knowing his motive. Is he a heroic whistleblower like he claims, or is he a disgruntled ex-employee trying to lash out at his former employer and gain notoriety in the process through misleading disclosures? [1] http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2014/04/what-is-known-about-nsas-prism-program.html http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2014/04/what-is-known-about... (jump down to section 5, just below the 'PRISM Tasking Process' slide) [2] http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2013/11/screenshots-from-boundlessinformant-can.html http://electrospaces.blogspot.nl/2013/11/screenshots-from-bo... [3] http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2015/02/snowden-would-not-have-been-able-to.html http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2015/02/snowden-would-not-... [4] http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/wolff/2015/03/20/new-editor-for-guardian-newspaper/25094233/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/wolff/2015/03/... (search for 'verboten') [5] http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/02/ken-silverstein-intercept-stifled-serial-reporting-203236.html http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/02/ken-silverstein-... [6] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-security-snowden-idUSBRE95K01J20130621 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-security-sn... [7] http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-sought-booz-allen-job-gather-evidence-nsa-surveillance?page=all http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1268209/snowden-s... [8] http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-says-nsa-has-direct-access-to-tech-companies-2013-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/snowden-says-nsa-has-direct-a... (search for "We've got PRISM") [9] http://blog.ted.com/we-dont-have-to-give-up-liberty-to-have-security-edward-snowden-at-ted2014/ http://blog.ted.com/we-dont-have-to-give-up-liberty-to-have-... (search for "The NSA's own slides") [10] https://www.beaconreader.com/joshua-foust/the-edward-snowden-snow-job?ref=profile https://www.beaconreader.com/joshua-foust/the-edward-snowden...