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I'll agree it was a bit mean, but I have sympathy for the annoyance that prompted it. irishcoffee responded to a thoughtful comment about how culture can shape

I'll agree it was a bit mean, but I have sympathy for the annoyance that prompted it. irishcoffee responded to a thoughtful comment about how culture can shape attitudes, with a one-line quip about how his DoD buddies say communities like HN are clueless, following up with specific but unsourced claims about Snowden being an attention-seeker, and ultimately plays the card "I'm a single dad working full time. Time is hard to come by" as an excuse for why he didn't source them. IMO then it's not fallacious to expose that for the lacking and possibly deliberately disingenuous argumentative tactic that it is. If he chooses to post actual evidence, we should move on to discussing that. As long as he only presents his "hominem" (in the form of secondhand claims from his friends, what he supposedly read once, and what the other demands on his personal time are) as evidence, ad-hominem is the only response he'll get and deserve.

irishcoffee 12y ago
I appreciate your candor. I would like to back up my claims, and given the time, would do so at my lunch break/free time tomorrow. I have no reason to lie and nothing to hide.
- scintill76 12y ago
  Thanks. I realize I may have sounded like I was definitively accusing you of lying or manipulating us. I'm not, but a more accurate description would be that so far your behavior looks suspicious and you haven't given very solid information. Although I tend to "side with" Snowden, I would not be surprised if there is more to him than meets the eye, so I would be interested in seeing if he has a history of grandstanding. (On the other hand, as others have pointed out, if what he has released is correct and against the will of the citizens/law/human rights, does it really matter if the disclosure fits a pattern of attention-seeking from the messenger?) P.S. What may be irking some commenters is that HN threads are so "time-sensitive." In another hour this thread will probably slip off the front page and out of mind. So some people may be anxious to see a source before that happens. Or they downvoted so agressively, so that unsourced claims will be seen by fewer people during the small period of time the thread is active, while it could legitimately take you a few days to find a source.
  - irishcoffee 12y ago
    This isn't the article I was looking for specifically, but this is what I was trying to say when I was talking about him in his younger years. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/1/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009... I'm still looking for the specific article, but this works in a pinch. He is very open and caviler about being the moral police. He decides what is right and wrong, and flip-flops his ideals when it serves him. Edit: another link. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-participated-in-online-chats-nsa-leaks/2462461/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-partic...
    - Karunamon 12y ago
      I'm going to keep asking this until you answer it: Why do you feel that Snowden's alleged attention-seeking behavior is more important than the content of the leaks?
      - irishcoffee 12y ago
        His attention-seeking, which you've latched on to, was one example of his personality. The links I posted show more of what I was trying to convey. He marches to the beat of his own moral code and changed it on a whim whenever it served his needs. I brought all that up to say, he leaked for his own benefit, or out of anger for being wronged, or something. What he leaked, whatever you've seen, is what he wanted you to see. He painted his own picture to the world, and the people he wronged can't set the record straight because of national security concerns. Its an unfair fight. Everyone is convinced NSA is out to get them, to monitor them, invade their privacy. throwing the law out the window and carte blanche having their way with whatever data they want. NSA I'm sure, has a huge legal team. Before they worked at NSA, the lawyers passed the bar. They took an oath to uphold the law. They wouldn't just let people break the law, if for no other reason than, they might get caught. I'm also pretty sure each DoD entity has an IG department. If someone does something wrong, and gets caught, they get in a lot of trouble. There is a whole series of checks and balances in place. If something is wrong, its the law you have a beef with. And again to answer your question, he leaked what he wanted, painted the picture he wanted, manipulated people to believe whatever he wants them to, knowing he couldn't be contradicted. He could literally say whatever he wants at this point and people gobble it up. People believe what they want, based on what he says, without ever pretending to consider the idea of possibly entertaining the idea of giving the DoD the benefit of the doubt.
- DonHopkins 12y ago
  I appreciate your candor too, and I'm taking what you've said at face value, that you want to back up your claims, and have no reason to lie and nothing to hide. And that you would like to talk all day about politicians lying in front of congress. So please answer my question: Is James Clapper a protagonist or antagonist for lying to congress?

irishcoffee 12y ago

I appreciate your candor. I would like to back up my claims, and given the time, would do so at my lunch break/free time tomorrow. I have no reason to lie and nothing to hide.

scintill76 12y ago
Thanks. I realize I may have sounded like I was definitively accusing you of lying or manipulating us. I'm not, but a more accurate description would be that so far your behavior looks suspicious and you haven't given very solid information. Although I tend to "side with" Snowden, I would not be surprised if there is more to him than meets the eye, so I would be interested in seeing if he has a history of grandstanding. (On the other hand, as others have pointed out, if what he has released is correct and against the will of the citizens/law/human rights, does it really matter if the disclosure fits a pattern of attention-seeking from the messenger?) P.S. What may be irking some commenters is that HN threads are so "time-sensitive." In another hour this thread will probably slip off the front page and out of mind. So some people may be anxious to see a source before that happens. Or they downvoted so agressively, so that unsourced claims will be seen by fewer people during the small period of time the thread is active, while it could legitimately take you a few days to find a source.
- irishcoffee 12y ago
  This isn't the article I was looking for specifically, but this is what I was trying to say when I was talking about him in his younger years. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-he-became-one/1/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009... I'm still looking for the specific article, but this works in a pinch. He is very open and caviler about being the moral police. He decides what is right and wrong, and flip-flops his ideals when it serves him. Edit: another link. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-participated-in-online-chats-nsa-leaks/2462461/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/06/27/snowden-partic...
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    I'm going to keep asking this until you answer it: Why do you feel that Snowden's alleged attention-seeking behavior is more important than the content of the leaks?
    - irishcoffee 12y ago
      His attention-seeking, which you've latched on to, was one example of his personality. The links I posted show more of what I was trying to convey. He marches to the beat of his own moral code and changed it on a whim whenever it served his needs. I brought all that up to say, he leaked for his own benefit, or out of anger for being wronged, or something. What he leaked, whatever you've seen, is what he wanted you to see. He painted his own picture to the world, and the people he wronged can't set the record straight because of national security concerns. Its an unfair fight. Everyone is convinced NSA is out to get them, to monitor them, invade their privacy. throwing the law out the window and carte blanche having their way with whatever data they want. NSA I'm sure, has a huge legal team. Before they worked at NSA, the lawyers passed the bar. They took an oath to uphold the law. They wouldn't just let people break the law, if for no other reason than, they might get caught. I'm also pretty sure each DoD entity has an IG department. If someone does something wrong, and gets caught, they get in a lot of trouble. There is a whole series of checks and balances in place. If something is wrong, its the law you have a beef with. And again to answer your question, he leaked what he wanted, painted the picture he wanted, manipulated people to believe whatever he wants them to, knowing he couldn't be contradicted. He could literally say whatever he wants at this point and people gobble it up. People believe what they want, based on what he says, without ever pretending to consider the idea of possibly entertaining the idea of giving the DoD the benefit of the doubt.
DonHopkins 12y ago
I appreciate your candor too, and I'm taking what you've said at face value, that you want to back up your claims, and have no reason to lie and nothing to hide. And that you would like to talk all day about politicians lying in front of congress. So please answer my question: Is James Clapper a protagonist or antagonist for lying to congress?