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Some cultures are more self-deprecating than others, which has some benefits, and some draw-backs. A lot of people would say that this kind of 'Law of Jante' at

Some cultures are more self-deprecating than others, which has some benefits, and some draw-backs. A lot of people would say that this kind of 'Law of Jante' attitude is a big reason why Scandinavian countries do so well in many measures of progress. Are you really implying that this kind of attitude represents a violence or trauma to the child? Someone of the opposite belief might well say the same about highly individualized cultures. To take such a strong position, I would say, ironically given the subject of discussion, represents a kind of cultural chauvinism.

dalke 12y ago
I quoted the author's views, which is that as a result "a Swede is deprived of initiative and confidence from the start." This sounds like a negative viewpoint. I will quote from the previous paragraphs of the book ("Of Swedish Ways" by Lilly Lorénzen, instructor in Swedish at the University of Minnesota and the American Swedish Institute, and 'builder of Swedish heritage in America'.) > "I cannot remember that my father or mother at any time made any visible display of affection for me, and sometimes I ached inside for a little love," they say. ... But it was not only the want of expressed love that made the childhood pinched and meager. It was the deliberate thwarting of all efforts for self-expression, the deliberate holding down of tendencies to excel." ... As I grew up the allure of the mirror made me sneak a glance now and then, only to be reprimanded by mother. To look in the mirror was forbidden! "Du ser ingenting ut!" [You don't look like anything!] ... To be told over and over again that one's looks equal nothing would, and did, subdue any attempt to enhance one's negligible features. ... In mature years when I asked my mother what her idea was, she said: "I was so afraid that my girls were being vain so I had to squelch any tendencies in that direction." But childhood frustrations have a way of ... expression later on. Mine is a silk ribbon tucked in my hair! This makes it pretty clear that the author disagrees with her Swedish cultural upbringing. I quoted the mother's response to show that you have a good point. But this can't really be at the heart of Jante Lagen, because it was that generation of Swedes worked to change the culture. If you know Swedish culture, this was before the Ni fråga, in the era where men were referred to often by job title, and people seldom talked to each other. In modern Sweden parents do show affection for their children, and don't (at least not that I've heard) say that their children are nothings. It was proper in older Swedish culture to beat their children with a rod behind the woodshed. In 1979, Sweden became the first nation to ban corporal punishment of children. So yes, in both the personal and historical context, these views were seen as negative and rejected. I therefore disagree with your conclusion that it's cultural chauvinism. These are people who disagreed with their own culture, and changed it. Here's another quote from the same book: > Could the American-born epithet, "the dumb Swede," have anything to do with the concept of perfection that every Swedish emigrant carried with him to the new country? ... Could it be that his laconic answers, his lack of ready banter, even after he had learned the language reasonably well, coined the phrase? There are those who maintain that fellow workers in camps and workshops initiated the expression, "the dumb Swede." Whatever the cause, the steadfast, silent Swede suffered under it, and many descendants have tales to tell of the resentment it fostered. In modern parlance, being called a "dumb Swede" was a microagression, with negative emotional consequences. Are you a cultural relativist who believes it is inappropriate to make any negative comments about someone else's culture? The modern Sweden, in the body of Margot Wallström, Sweden's foreign minister, disagrees with you. Saudi Arabia recalled their ambassador to Sweden after she criticized human rights in Saudi Arabia. Do you think she wrong to make those criticisms?
- Brakenshire 12y ago
  That is a pretty astonishing straw man. I have said it is a nonsense to talk of teaching what was referred to as 'modesty and self effacement' as being a violence and trauma, and your conclusion is that I am a cultural relativist who believes that Saudi Arabian attitudes shouldn't be criticized and that it's fine to beat children for punishment. Congratulations on that deduction!
  - dalke 12y ago
    I wrote "Being told once that an idea of yours is nothing? Survivable. Being told that from a baby? That changes your life. And not really in a good way." From that you inferred I was a cultural chauvinist. Or was it the author? I can't tell. But I generally agree with author's negative views on those parts of the traditional Swedish upbringing, and prefer the modern ones more. In any case, given that Swedes actively worked to change their culture, they didn't like it either. You broadened the conversation to be "other cultures". Yes, your shift from specific details about older Swedish culture to a generic "some cultures" diminishes the importance of observations, and yes, sounds very much like relativism. The comment about the corporal punishment was in the context of changes to Swedish child-raising practices in the mid-20th century. I meant it only as an example of how the examples I quoted fit into the internal debates in Swedish culture. Yes, I think that beating one's children is violence, and may lead to trauma. I'm much more sure of that than being able to make a full understanding of early 20th century Swedish culture to say the same about that situation. What I think is important is the evidence that small phrases, like "you are nothing" and "dumb Swede", can cause unappreciated emotional turmoil. As these examples predate the concept of "microagressions", there's no chance that these were induced by the modern zeitgeist.

dalke 12y ago

I quoted the author's views, which is that as a result "a Swede is deprived of initiative and confidence from the start." This sounds like a negative viewpoint. I will quote from the previous paragraphs of the book ("Of Swedish Ways" by Lilly Lorénzen, instructor in Swedish at the University of Minnesota and the American Swedish Institute, and 'builder of Swedish heritage in America'.) > "I cannot remember that my father or mother at any time made any visible display of affection for me, and sometimes I ached inside for a little love," they say. ... But it was not only the want of expressed love that made the childhood pinched and meager. It was the deliberate thwarting of all efforts for self-expression, the deliberate holding down of tendencies to excel." ... As I grew up the allure of the mirror made me sneak a glance now and then, only to be reprimanded by mother. To look in the mirror was forbidden! "Du ser ingenting ut!" [You don't look like anything!] ... To be told over and over again that one's looks equal nothing would, and did, subdue any attempt to enhance one's negligible features. ... In mature years when I asked my mother what her idea was, she said: "I was so afraid that my girls were being vain so I had to squelch any tendencies in that direction." But childhood frustrations have a way of ... expression later on. Mine is a silk ribbon tucked in my hair! This makes it pretty clear that the author disagrees with her Swedish cultural upbringing. I quoted the mother's response to show that you have a good point. But this can't really be at the heart of Jante Lagen, because it was that generation of Swedes worked to change the culture. If you know Swedish culture, this was before the Ni fråga, in the era where men were referred to often by job title, and people seldom talked to each other. In modern Sweden parents do show affection for their children, and don't (at least not that I've heard) say that their children are nothings. It was proper in older Swedish culture to beat their children with a rod behind the woodshed. In 1979, Sweden became the first nation to ban corporal punishment of children. So yes, in both the personal and historical context, these views were seen as negative and rejected. I therefore disagree with your conclusion that it's cultural chauvinism. These are people who disagreed with their own culture, and changed it. Here's another quote from the same book: > Could the American-born epithet, "the dumb Swede," have anything to do with the concept of perfection that every Swedish emigrant carried with him to the new country? ... Could it be that his laconic answers, his lack of ready banter, even after he had learned the language reasonably well, coined the phrase? There are those who maintain that fellow workers in camps and workshops initiated the expression, "the dumb Swede." Whatever the cause, the steadfast, silent Swede suffered under it, and many descendants have tales to tell of the resentment it fostered. In modern parlance, being called a "dumb Swede" was a microagression, with negative emotional consequences. Are you a cultural relativist who believes it is inappropriate to make any negative comments about someone else's culture? The modern Sweden, in the body of Margot Wallström, Sweden's foreign minister, disagrees with you. Saudi Arabia recalled their ambassador to Sweden after she criticized human rights in Saudi Arabia. Do you think she wrong to make those criticisms?

Brakenshire 12y ago
That is a pretty astonishing straw man. I have said it is a nonsense to talk of teaching what was referred to as 'modesty and self effacement' as being a violence and trauma, and your conclusion is that I am a cultural relativist who believes that Saudi Arabian attitudes shouldn't be criticized and that it's fine to beat children for punishment. Congratulations on that deduction!
- dalke 12y ago
  I wrote "Being told once that an idea of yours is nothing? Survivable. Being told that from a baby? That changes your life. And not really in a good way." From that you inferred I was a cultural chauvinist. Or was it the author? I can't tell. But I generally agree with author's negative views on those parts of the traditional Swedish upbringing, and prefer the modern ones more. In any case, given that Swedes actively worked to change their culture, they didn't like it either. You broadened the conversation to be "other cultures". Yes, your shift from specific details about older Swedish culture to a generic "some cultures" diminishes the importance of observations, and yes, sounds very much like relativism. The comment about the corporal punishment was in the context of changes to Swedish child-raising practices in the mid-20th century. I meant it only as an example of how the examples I quoted fit into the internal debates in Swedish culture. Yes, I think that beating one's children is violence, and may lead to trauma. I'm much more sure of that than being able to make a full understanding of early 20th century Swedish culture to say the same about that situation. What I think is important is the evidence that small phrases, like "you are nothing" and "dumb Swede", can cause unappreciated emotional turmoil. As these examples predate the concept of "microagressions", there's no chance that these were induced by the modern zeitgeist.