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> ...they are reading this thread right now, and all the other threads. No, I don't work for the DoD. I live in the Washington-Baltimore metro area and know pe

> ...they are reading this thread right now, and all the other threads. No, I don't work for the DoD. I live in the Washington-Baltimore metro area and know people who work for government agencies under the DoD. N = 1 sample size, all the people I know employed by DoD agencies highly amused at how misinformed places like HN are about places like NSA.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
bjelkeman-again 12y ago
Of course, we will not be informed, as it is Secret, with a big S. But, after Snowden, we are somewhat better informed than we were. And this is good. We should be even better informed and this should be about how we want to structure our society in the future. But that doesn't fit the current political climate and possibly will not, for quite a while.
- irishcoffee 12y ago
  N, that is my whole point. People are very much misinformed. Horribly misinformed. Ill try and dig up the link(s) but snowden had a history of grandstanding that dates back to highschool. He was not a noble whistleblower, he wanted attention. edit: typo
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Time for one of your friends to step forward and correct the record then. You know, for the 'greater good'.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Fantastic, but that amounts to an ad-hominem attack on Snowden that doesn't reduce, in the least, the impact and validity of the data he released. We could do with more "attention seekers" willing to blow the whistle on illegal activity.
    - DonHopkins 12y ago
      An unsubstantiated ad-hominem attack. As long as he promises "Ill try and dig up the link(s) but" and never gets around to it, he can accuse Snowden of anything he wants to make up that fits his narrative. If he had any proof that countered the message he's trying to divert attention away from, he'd provide links to that, instead of just promising and failing to provide links that supported his unsubstantiated attack on the messenger. It's ironic how irishcoffee wants to divert attention away from the facts and instead towards Snowden himself, much more than Snowden himself wants the attention. It's a textbook example of "narcissism by proxy". Snowden isn't a narcissist just because irishcoffee wants him to be the center of attention. Ill try and dig up the link(s) but I'm not full of shit so here it is: http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130609-edward-snowden-an-nsa-contractor-employee-says-he-is-the-source-of-nsa-leaks http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130609-edward-sn... Snowden also told the Guardian that he does not want his personal story to divert attention from the larger story revealed by his disclosures. “I know the media likes to personalize political debates, and I know the government will demonize me.” “I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in.” He added: “My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them.”
      - irishcoffee 12y ago
        I'm a single dad working full time. Time is hard to come by, I'll post the damn link when I have time to find it.
        DonHopkins 12y ago
        You said people were misinformed, then you changed the topic to Snowden's personality and high school record. Just what misinformation are you referring to, and can you provide some non-anecdotal evidence to correct the misinformation? Are you saying that it's Snowden's personality and high school record that people are misinformed about, or the NSA? Who was misinformed and who was spreading misinformation when Clapper directly lied under oath when he was testifying in front of congress? How about focusing attention on the content of the leaks, and the misinformation the NSA itself is spreading, instead of Snowden's personality? I'm more interested to know how your DoD friends think about what was leaked, and what Clapper lied about, than who leaked it.
  - dubbel 12y ago
    He could generate a lot more attention for him as a person if he wanted. Instead he let the world largely focus on the material he could extract. Which is good, because this shouldn't be about him: If it was the media and government would try even harder to find irksome material about him as a person (Bullshit like "his girlfriend was a stripper, and this is why we should not trust the material"). Or do you actually think the material is forged?
    - LLWM 12y ago
      It is, by his own admission, heavily curated. Both in what he exfiltrated and what selections from that have actually been published.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        Because if it had not been then the long knives would have been out for such irresponsible wholesale disclosure.
        LLWM 12y ago
        What's the difference? He fled the country anyway.
      - wavefunction 12y ago
        It is, but I don't see how any material that hasn't been disclosed yet could somehow offset the revelations offered by what has been.
        LLWM 12y ago
        That's shockingly uncreative of you. You don't even need to come up with your own ideas if that's too hard for you, just watch some dumb 90s scifi.
  - JackC 12y ago
    This kind of thing is a great example of why Snowden had to release a large trove of documents to reporters. Earlier whistleblowers were easily dismissed this way, but now the personal attacks are basically irrelevant -- we have the documents and can make our own judgments about who's horribly misinforming us.
  - researcher88 12y ago
    And my friends would be amused by your friends. I know a few DoD-type guys who operate in these informal government contractor circles. I have seen some wild stuff involving private companies, NASA and intel agencies. Lot of these CIA things are being outsourced to contractors. Similar to the private intel network of Sid Blumenthal providing info to Hillary Clinton, from an easily hacked AOL email no less. The power and influence, along with whims of eccentric players, in these contractor groups is really getting out of hand. And we all want attention in some way, including you for posting your comments and me for mine. It could be both a noble thing Snowden did and something he wants some recognition for doing. Basing your analysis on whatever he did in high school is quite silly. Most everybody was looking for some attention then and likely going about it the wrong way.
  - DonHopkins 12y ago
    This kind of unsubstantiated ad-hominem attack only proves Snowden's point and bolsters his credibility. You're not a whistleblower either: you just want to DIVERT attention from the FACTS Snowden revealed that you can't refute. "I'll try and dig up the link(s) but ..." is in the same league with "I'm not racist but ..." and "some of my best friends are black".
- milspec 12y ago
  I could inform you about non-secret stuff like culture, but you wouldn't believe me. You want to believe that these are horrible small-minded people who don't think twice about violating your rights. The reality is they are anything but that.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    At a guess they are ordinary people thinking they are doing something good and working hard for the cause, be it a love for their country or genuine sense of protecting their own or some concept ('freedom'). On average they'll be very intelligent and working harder than their counterparts in industry for less money. True believers with good intentions.
    - LLWM 12y ago
      At a guess you believe they're not actually doing something good even though you are, on average, less informed about their mission and activities, less intelligent, and lazier.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        > At a guess you believe they're not actually doing something good Correct, and the evidence available so far strengthens that belief. > even though you are, on average, less informed about their mission and activities, That's not my fault though, I'd love to be more informed, but hey, secrets! > less intelligent, Quite probably. > and lazier. That's very well possible but I actually highly doubt it. So, why the insults? Did you feel somehow implicated?
        LLWM 12y ago
        It's not meant as an insult. I'm just riffing off of your own comment that >On average they'll be very intelligent and working harder than their counterparts in industry for less money.
      - Cyther606 12y ago
shit_parade 12y ago
You live in a bubble wherein everyone there is there to serve the government. The people you know are probably also amused that torture goes unpunished.
jacquesm 12y ago
Evidence free assertions hold very little water. Snowden did provide evidence, none of which to date has been refuted. So we are relegated to using what we can verify and extrapolation being a part of human nature the blanks will be filled in according to expectation. If the reality is substantially different/better/worse then in time that too will be corrected. Your comment is entirely content free so it does nothing at all to help improve the situation with specifics. It's just the 'U' and the 'D' from FUD.
- LLWM 12y ago
  That argument is not very convincing when he revealed classified information and either confirming or refuting any of it would also require release of classified information.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    On the contrary, I find the fact that Snowden is on the 'wanted' list and that presidential planes are diverted in order to attempt to arrest him proof positive that what he released was genuine, after all, if he made it all up then there would be no issue.
    - LLWM 12y ago
      I don't doubt that it's genuine. But a deliberately selected subset of true information can still be misleading.
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        I'm well aware of that. But that does not mean that a subset of true information can't be informative either. It can be misleading, it does not have to be. And if it is misleading then there are plenty of people in a position to correct that perception, it's only a matter of time before that will happen.
        LLWM 12y ago
DonHopkins 12y ago
They're highly amused at how they have misinformed places like HN about places like NSA.
doktrin 12y ago
my experience is more direct, and contradicts yours. yay for anecdotes.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

bjelkeman-again 12y ago

Of course, we will not be informed, as it is Secret, with a big S. But, after Snowden, we are somewhat better informed than we were. And this is good. We should be even better informed and this should be about how we want to structure our society in the future. But that doesn't fit the current political climate and possibly will not, for quite a while.

irishcoffee 12y ago
N, that is my whole point. People are very much misinformed. Horribly misinformed. Ill try and dig up the link(s) but snowden had a history of grandstanding that dates back to highschool. He was not a noble whistleblower, he wanted attention. edit: typo
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Time for one of your friends to step forward and correct the record then. You know, for the 'greater good'.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  Fantastic, but that amounts to an ad-hominem attack on Snowden that doesn't reduce, in the least, the impact and validity of the data he released. We could do with more "attention seekers" willing to blow the whistle on illegal activity.
  - DonHopkins 12y ago
    An unsubstantiated ad-hominem attack. As long as he promises "Ill try and dig up the link(s) but" and never gets around to it, he can accuse Snowden of anything he wants to make up that fits his narrative. If he had any proof that countered the message he's trying to divert attention away from, he'd provide links to that, instead of just promising and failing to provide links that supported his unsubstantiated attack on the messenger. It's ironic how irishcoffee wants to divert attention away from the facts and instead towards Snowden himself, much more than Snowden himself wants the attention. It's a textbook example of "narcissism by proxy". Snowden isn't a narcissist just because irishcoffee wants him to be the center of attention. Ill try and dig up the link(s) but I'm not full of shit so here it is: http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130609-edward-snowden-an-nsa-contractor-employee-says-he-is-the-source-of-nsa-leaks http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20130609-edward-sn... Snowden also told the Guardian that he does not want his personal story to divert attention from the larger story revealed by his disclosures. “I know the media likes to personalize political debates, and I know the government will demonize me.” “I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in.” He added: “My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them.”
    - irishcoffee 12y ago
      I'm a single dad working full time. Time is hard to come by, I'll post the damn link when I have time to find it.
      - DonHopkins 12y ago
        You said people were misinformed, then you changed the topic to Snowden's personality and high school record. Just what misinformation are you referring to, and can you provide some non-anecdotal evidence to correct the misinformation? Are you saying that it's Snowden's personality and high school record that people are misinformed about, or the NSA? Who was misinformed and who was spreading misinformation when Clapper directly lied under oath when he was testifying in front of congress? How about focusing attention on the content of the leaks, and the misinformation the NSA itself is spreading, instead of Snowden's personality? I'm more interested to know how your DoD friends think about what was leaked, and what Clapper lied about, than who leaked it.
- dubbel 12y ago
  He could generate a lot more attention for him as a person if he wanted. Instead he let the world largely focus on the material he could extract. Which is good, because this shouldn't be about him: If it was the media and government would try even harder to find irksome material about him as a person (Bullshit like "his girlfriend was a stripper, and this is why we should not trust the material"). Or do you actually think the material is forged?
  - LLWM 12y ago
    It is, by his own admission, heavily curated. Both in what he exfiltrated and what selections from that have actually been published.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Because if it had not been then the long knives would have been out for such irresponsible wholesale disclosure.
      - LLWM 12y ago
        What's the difference? He fled the country anyway.
    - wavefunction 12y ago
      It is, but I don't see how any material that hasn't been disclosed yet could somehow offset the revelations offered by what has been.
      - LLWM 12y ago
        That's shockingly uncreative of you. You don't even need to come up with your own ideas if that's too hard for you, just watch some dumb 90s scifi.
- JackC 12y ago
  This kind of thing is a great example of why Snowden had to release a large trove of documents to reporters. Earlier whistleblowers were easily dismissed this way, but now the personal attacks are basically irrelevant -- we have the documents and can make our own judgments about who's horribly misinforming us.
- researcher88 12y ago
  And my friends would be amused by your friends. I know a few DoD-type guys who operate in these informal government contractor circles. I have seen some wild stuff involving private companies, NASA and intel agencies. Lot of these CIA things are being outsourced to contractors. Similar to the private intel network of Sid Blumenthal providing info to Hillary Clinton, from an easily hacked AOL email no less. The power and influence, along with whims of eccentric players, in these contractor groups is really getting out of hand. And we all want attention in some way, including you for posting your comments and me for mine. It could be both a noble thing Snowden did and something he wants some recognition for doing. Basing your analysis on whatever he did in high school is quite silly. Most everybody was looking for some attention then and likely going about it the wrong way.
- DonHopkins 12y ago
  This kind of unsubstantiated ad-hominem attack only proves Snowden's point and bolsters his credibility. You're not a whistleblower either: you just want to DIVERT attention from the FACTS Snowden revealed that you can't refute. "I'll try and dig up the link(s) but ..." is in the same league with "I'm not racist but ..." and "some of my best friends are black".
milspec 12y ago
I could inform you about non-secret stuff like culture, but you wouldn't believe me. You want to believe that these are horrible small-minded people who don't think twice about violating your rights. The reality is they are anything but that.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  At a guess they are ordinary people thinking they are doing something good and working hard for the cause, be it a love for their country or genuine sense of protecting their own or some concept ('freedom'). On average they'll be very intelligent and working harder than their counterparts in industry for less money. True believers with good intentions.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    At a guess you believe they're not actually doing something good even though you are, on average, less informed about their mission and activities, less intelligent, and lazier.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      > At a guess you believe they're not actually doing something good Correct, and the evidence available so far strengthens that belief. > even though you are, on average, less informed about their mission and activities, That's not my fault though, I'd love to be more informed, but hey, secrets! > less intelligent, Quite probably. > and lazier. That's very well possible but I actually highly doubt it. So, why the insults? Did you feel somehow implicated?
      - LLWM 12y ago
        It's not meant as an insult. I'm just riffing off of your own comment that >On average they'll be very intelligent and working harder than their counterparts in industry for less money.
    - Cyther606 12y ago

shit_parade 12y ago

You live in a bubble wherein everyone there is there to serve the government. The people you know are probably also amused that torture goes unpunished.

jacquesm 12y ago

Evidence free assertions hold very little water. Snowden did provide evidence, none of which to date has been refuted. So we are relegated to using what we can verify and extrapolation being a part of human nature the blanks will be filled in according to expectation. If the reality is substantially different/better/worse then in time that too will be corrected. Your comment is entirely content free so it does nothing at all to help improve the situation with specifics. It's just the 'U' and the 'D' from FUD.

LLWM 12y ago
That argument is not very convincing when he revealed classified information and either confirming or refuting any of it would also require release of classified information.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  On the contrary, I find the fact that Snowden is on the 'wanted' list and that presidential planes are diverted in order to attempt to arrest him proof positive that what he released was genuine, after all, if he made it all up then there would be no issue.
  - LLWM 12y ago
    I don't doubt that it's genuine. But a deliberately selected subset of true information can still be misleading.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      I'm well aware of that. But that does not mean that a subset of true information can't be informative either. It can be misleading, it does not have to be. And if it is misleading then there are plenty of people in a position to correct that perception, it's only a matter of time before that will happen.
      - LLWM 12y ago

DonHopkins 12y ago

They're highly amused at how they have misinformed places like HN about places like NSA.

doktrin 12y ago

my experience is more direct, and contradicts yours. yay for anecdotes.