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You'd think it was trivial, but it's shockingly hard to do without using iTunes. For a person who frequents HN, that's extremely unintuitive. And iTunes is terr

You'd think it was trivial, but it's shockingly hard to do without using iTunes. For a person who frequents HN, that's extremely unintuitive. And iTunes is terrible, so that solution is out. It took me forever to realize that just because I can kinda-sorta interact with my iPhone as a storage device doesn't mean that it's even remotely going to actually behave as one. The whole process is infuriating if you go in expecting it to be simple (which, given it's an iPhone, one might reasonably expect). Try to find an obvious way to put an mp3 on an iPhone without some odd middleware software; some of the software looks sketchy - and/or has a cost, and a many suggestions are to just use Google Play or Amazon Music. I also like the Winamp plugin from 2010, as well. That sort of list is pretty much the opposite of trivial. I mean, if it was drag-and-drop, sure, but this that ain't. Personally? I ended up just uploading my music to Amazon and use their app. It's less infuriating than the Music app on the stock iPhone.

tinco 12y ago
It is trivial. And it is not shockingly hard. It's precisely as hard as anyone would expect it to be. Apple doesn't want you to do it, so you need multiple third party apps that risk being banned from the app store to implement it. (to clarify: If it were impossible, which it very well might be, that would still not be shocking)
- HCIdivision17 12y ago
  You're of course correct; the term shocking here is pure rhetoric. It would be shocking only if probing for a solution actually caused the device to electrically feedback, which would then be both literally and figuratively shocking :P (I've ruled this out so far, I hope.)
TheDong 12y ago
iTunes is out? Well, that's a pointless constraint if I've ever seen one. Yes it's terrible software, but plenty of people run terrible software once in a blue moon because it's the only way to accomplish some task. Also, you say "For a person who frequents HN that's extremely unintuitive"... are you implying HN users are incapable of using google? That HN users are not aware that a locked-down Apple ecosystem means there's no user freedom? I'd expect the users of HN to be a large overlap with the people familiar with Stallman's views and how Apple is known to behave. I would not expect the regular man on the street to know what "walled garden" meant in terms of apps nor what "closed source lockin" meant, but I'd expect the average HN user to be very familiar with those concepts. I find your claim that such a simple idea is unintuitive to an HN user demeaning towards all of us.
- HCIdivision17 12y ago
  Specifically, I meant that usually there's a reasonable work-around. Something you can probe, inspect, and otherwise work with. In this case there really just isn't anything useful at a high level. A better term might be it seems to violate the Law of Least Astonishment, but from the hacker perspective instead: I have a device that's really just spoofing acting like a storage device. There's a lot of side trips that normally can be taken to work around this, and each are the same sort of no-op, since it's not for real. This sort of thing was common for the old 'dumb' phones, but it seemed like it was because they were too dumb to behave properly; now here's a smart phone being dumb. It's a bit unexpected, at least for what seem like obvious things like "add mp3". But there we are. The whole time there's a feeling of "gosh, surely there's a better way" and there just really isn't: install iTunes and let it do whatever it wants, or you just don't get to put that mp3 on your phone. And wanting to avoid installing iTunes isn't pointless. I mean, you may not see it, but there are certainly reasons not to. Heck, just failing to update iTunes was useful for a few years due to some odd DRM workarounds (mostly for a WinAmp addon that read iTunes music files). Besides, it's fairly invasive - you may only use it rarely, but it installs a couple services and tries to jump in when the phone connects (all can be administered, but it's a pain cleaning up that mess). While I've finally come to just tolerate it, I don't appreciate it. (Perhaps I should use counterintuitive? I would hope that would get the same idea across without somehow triggering offense. The problem I'm describing is of expectation and should be orthogonal to intelligence. There's a lot of subjectivity to it, but no reason to take offense. Mindsets filter, so why would a hacker find the same things intuitive as your average user?)
- reitanqild 12y ago
  Where does Apple keep their Linux versions of iTunes? Yep. Exactly. Believe it or not, a lot of technical people use Linux machines.

tinco 12y ago

It is trivial. And it is not shockingly hard. It's precisely as hard as anyone would expect it to be. Apple doesn't want you to do it, so you need multiple third party apps that risk being banned from the app store to implement it. (to clarify: If it were impossible, which it very well might be, that would still not be shocking)

HCIdivision17 12y ago
You're of course correct; the term shocking here is pure rhetoric. It would be shocking only if probing for a solution actually caused the device to electrically feedback, which would then be both literally and figuratively shocking :P (I've ruled this out so far, I hope.)

TheDong 12y ago

iTunes is out? Well, that's a pointless constraint if I've ever seen one. Yes it's terrible software, but plenty of people run terrible software once in a blue moon because it's the only way to accomplish some task. Also, you say "For a person who frequents HN that's extremely unintuitive"... are you implying HN users are incapable of using google? That HN users are not aware that a locked-down Apple ecosystem means there's no user freedom? I'd expect the users of HN to be a large overlap with the people familiar with Stallman's views and how Apple is known to behave. I would not expect the regular man on the street to know what "walled garden" meant in terms of apps nor what "closed source lockin" meant, but I'd expect the average HN user to be very familiar with those concepts. I find your claim that such a simple idea is unintuitive to an HN user demeaning towards all of us.

HCIdivision17 12y ago
Specifically, I meant that usually there's a reasonable work-around. Something you can probe, inspect, and otherwise work with. In this case there really just isn't anything useful at a high level. A better term might be it seems to violate the Law of Least Astonishment, but from the hacker perspective instead: I have a device that's really just spoofing acting like a storage device. There's a lot of side trips that normally can be taken to work around this, and each are the same sort of no-op, since it's not for real. This sort of thing was common for the old 'dumb' phones, but it seemed like it was because they were too dumb to behave properly; now here's a smart phone being dumb. It's a bit unexpected, at least for what seem like obvious things like "add mp3". But there we are. The whole time there's a feeling of "gosh, surely there's a better way" and there just really isn't: install iTunes and let it do whatever it wants, or you just don't get to put that mp3 on your phone. And wanting to avoid installing iTunes isn't pointless. I mean, you may not see it, but there are certainly reasons not to. Heck, just failing to update iTunes was useful for a few years due to some odd DRM workarounds (mostly for a WinAmp addon that read iTunes music files). Besides, it's fairly invasive - you may only use it rarely, but it installs a couple services and tries to jump in when the phone connects (all can be administered, but it's a pain cleaning up that mess). While I've finally come to just tolerate it, I don't appreciate it. (Perhaps I should use counterintuitive? I would hope that would get the same idea across without somehow triggering offense. The problem I'm describing is of expectation and should be orthogonal to intelligence. There's a lot of subjectivity to it, but no reason to take offense. Mindsets filter, so why would a hacker find the same things intuitive as your average user?)
reitanqild 12y ago
Where does Apple keep their Linux versions of iTunes? Yep. Exactly. Believe it or not, a lot of technical people use Linux machines.