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Actually, someone here (who I cannot remember) said quite eloquently yesterday that our biggest export--and "influence" on the world--is culture. For the first

by j42 12y ago

Actually, someone here (who I cannot remember) said quite eloquently yesterday that our biggest export--and "influence" on the world--is culture. For the first time I realized that pissing people off may, in fact be the objective as the other reply stated. China and Russia are both (quite unique) examples of countries with an unfathomable degree of control over their citizens. It can be hard to grasp occasionally, coming from a western mindset but for the vast majority within said countries, the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. North Korea is an extreme caricature of this pattern. Technology is naturally subversive to this as it lets people interact directly with other cultures and ideologies which may provide contrasting philosophies and--terrifyingly--the opportunity for free thought. Restrict access to technology and you'll have a revolution. Instead, you become the "troll," or the "problem," and quietly become isolated from large areas of the network, all while reducing the amount of information you have to sift through before passing it along to the populace, in the name of security. And while the effect on actual traffic may be minimal, it does make for a very cold perception which generally makes cross-cultural integration unlikely. How many western consumer-technology companies do you see integrating with Asia-based API's/demand, compared to other industry, let alone academics?

karcass 12y ago
> the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. That's pretty much how I feel about the Fox-watching population of the US.
- carboncopy 12y ago
  > That's pretty much how I feel about the Fox-watching population of the US. I used to think the same thing, and to some degree I think it holds truth. But after spending lots of time with my right-wing family, I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. Most avid Fox News watchers I've met fail to embrace the entire world-view or vision promoted on the channel, and share maybe 60-70% of the opinions elicited toward viewers. I know, it's just one data point, but I don't have a study handy.
  - troels 12y ago
    I think it's generally safe to assume that a large chunk of people who happen to hold opinions you disagree with don't hold them because they are retarded. Even Fox News viewers.
- WizzleKake 12y ago
  > That's pretty much how I feel about the Fox-watching population of the US. It's how I feel about everyone who gets their information from TV.
- PlzSnow 12y ago
  It's also how I feel about the RT-watching population of the US.
- wyclif 12y ago
  It's also how I feel about the CNN-watching population of the US.
- javert 12y ago
  Except that we have free speech in this country, so Fox can be, and is, heavily and freely criticized freely all the time. And because we have free speech, there are multiple alternatives that act as checks and balances across our culture as a whole. In other words, comparing Fox to the media situation in China or Russia is just ridiculous and irresponsible.
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    In other words, comparing Fox to the media situation in China or Russia is just ridiculous and irresponsible. The point of "comparing" anything to anything else is to see how the things are alike, and how they differ, as in "compare and contrast." If such comparisons are to be verboten, even if by stigma and not by fiat, then we are giving up an essential tool of understanding.
    - javert 12y ago
      Let's look up definitions of compare. https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Acompare&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Acompare&ie=utf-8&oe... I'm using it in a valid way, and not in the way you suggest, and it's clear from context which meaning I am using.
      - nitrogen 12y ago
        That may be the meaning you are using, but that's not what the other commenters are doing.
greenleafjacob 12y ago
> China and Russia are both (quite unique) examples of countries with an unfathomable degree of control over their citizens. It can be hard to grasp occasionally, coming from a western mindset but for the vast majority within said countries, the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. North Korea is an extreme caricature of this pattern. Perhaps you ought to read the retracted preface from Animal Farm [1]. [1]: http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/Orwell.html http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/Orwell.html
- gbog 12y ago
  > [China] an unfathomable degree of control over their citizens You obviously haven't been there. I think Chinese gov have the same level of control over its citizens as France: very erratic, sometime works well, some people try to play with fire, but overall the Chinese are all but lobotomized robots in the hands of a few puppet masters. There's over 500 strikes a year in China, not counting all the ones not big enough to be counted. I have seen streets of pedestrians walking against policemen, who were sweating of fear. Right now the prez is quite appreciated and trusted by the people, so he probably has some level of control, but this is earned by its fight against corruption, and not by some matrix-like brainwashing system.
  - westiseast 12y ago
    I have been there ;) You're misinterpreting the nature of control. Yes, there are protests, mostly because the government lets them happen. It helps people let off steam, it gives the government an indication of how people feel, and quite often there are conflicting interests which the Party can rise above (remember, government and the Party are not the same thing). So, often it's a bunch of workers protesting against a company, or a corrupt local official in one department - the Party can let that happen, and choose sides later when they've decided which way the wind is blowing. Policemen are shitting themselves because the Party mostly sides with the security apparatus but today they might let the protest get a bit wild if they want to allow the protesters a bit of leeway, and then those untrained, poorly equipped policemen will be screwed. When stuff he Party doesn't like happens, they shut it down using methods you (on the whole) cannot do in France, the UK, and the U.S. Try introducing political censorship of material critical to Hollande. Try censoring books and courses in university. Try locking up journalists and writers (on tax evasion charges of course) when they say stuff you disagree with. Try rolling out the tanks when a protest gets out of hand. Etc. So don't be fooled by the seemingly light hand of the gov - they've intentionally backed off from the Cultural Recolution level of control because they know that most people don't give a damn, and if left alone they will do nothing. How about an experiment - I'll hold up an anti government sign in front of the French parliament, and you do the same in Tiananmen Square and we'll see how much control the Chinese gov has ;)
jhedwards 12y ago
> the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted I have to disagree with others that this part of your comment is a bit too strong. I lived in China for two years and many people I talked to would say something like "We admire America because it is so free, our country is just so corrupt" or whisper something like "when the US says our human rights are bad, we agree."
- LiweiZ 12y ago
  I think both of you are correct. Those distortions to that extent do not fully disable every individual's awareness regarding something not good.
- j42 12y ago
  I think the disillusionment exists, especially among the youth and democratically-minded. In my opinion, for such a regime to be successful in the modern day it must exist... that said, I would say the most telling aspect is how these particular individuals view their goals and/or definitions of "success." America certainly isn't the democratic ideal, however in contrast it's apparent how a sustained cultural ideal can eventually swing the legislative tide (LBGT rights, marijuana legalization, et al.). From my experience, even the Chinese protests are government-sanctioned ("order through controlled disorder") and the communication happening on platforms such as Sina Weibo is generally devoid of any cultural or philosophical taboos. I'm hesitant to be too strong about this because truthfully I haven't spent much time there in the most recent years, however I can't say I've seen any indication this has changed--everything points to more of the same, and the most recent Hong Kong protests provided a rather interesting look at how this cognitive dissonance plays out in an environment where maintaining such control (due to its international economic relevance) is more difficult.
  - stevendaniels 12y ago
    >I think the disillusionment exists, especially among the youth and democratically-minded. This. Except older, middle-class people are even more disillusioned than the young. As a rule, older Chinese people won't talk about their disillusionment, but those who lived through the 50s and 60s faced huge obstacles. They live lives of quiet desperation.
abalone 12y ago
The difference between the U.S. and China/Russia is that the people in China/Russia know the media is controlled by the powers that be. Here, our press is also "defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs." We just believe that it's free. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent
- obstinate 12y ago
  It is rather stupid to equate the degree of media manipulation in the West vs. China and Russia.
  - _abattoir 12y ago
    Not at all. The Western governments simply have to hide it better.
  - abalone 12y ago
    I didn't equate them. I said mind control is worse in the West. And, I cited a detailed analysis of the topic.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - nilbot 12y ago
      The fact that you at least have an analysis article to cite from kinda proves he was on point, and you are not, not entirely. Which control is more ultimate, you can type some but mainstream ignores you or you cannot type at all?
  - colordrops 12y ago
    You are right. The degree and sophistication of media manipulation is profoundly greater in the west. While the Chinese block a lot of media, the manipulation is minimal. Most Chinese are very cynical and know exactly what is going on. The west, or at least the US, traps people in a matrix of sorts where they don't even see the manipulation. The narrative is exquisitely framed and guided to leave people with a sense of moral superiority and basic faith in the system despite perceived flaws, as is ironically exhibited by your comment. edit: some good resources on the history and nature of western media manipulation are the BBC documentary "The Century of Self" and Noam Chomsky's book "Manufacturing Consent".
antocv 12y ago
> It can be hard to grasp occasionally, coming from a western mindset but for the vast majority within said countries, the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. You are delusional if you believe the above doesnt apply to US and EU countries.
UhUhUhUh 12y ago
There are just as many (and few) conscious people in any country on the planet. Thinking otherwise is inaccurate and also reinforces and in fact validates the efforts of local powers to rally a larger part of their subjects in defence of a cultural, irrelevant but real, identity, thus muddling the problem. There were as many (and few) resistants in Nazi Germany as there were in France. I see all these people as my "brothers/sisters" and I don't like it when they are drowned in a sea of commiseration.

by j42 12y ago

karcass 12y ago

> the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. That's pretty much how I feel about the Fox-watching population of the US.

carboncopy 12y ago
> That's pretty much how I feel about the Fox-watching population of the US. I used to think the same thing, and to some degree I think it holds truth. But after spending lots of time with my right-wing family, I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. Most avid Fox News watchers I've met fail to embrace the entire world-view or vision promoted on the channel, and share maybe 60-70% of the opinions elicited toward viewers. I know, it's just one data point, but I don't have a study handy.
- troels 12y ago
  I think it's generally safe to assume that a large chunk of people who happen to hold opinions you disagree with don't hold them because they are retarded. Even Fox News viewers.
WizzleKake 12y ago
> That's pretty much how I feel about the Fox-watching population of the US. It's how I feel about everyone who gets their information from TV.
PlzSnow 12y ago
It's also how I feel about the RT-watching population of the US.
wyclif 12y ago
It's also how I feel about the CNN-watching population of the US.
javert 12y ago
Except that we have free speech in this country, so Fox can be, and is, heavily and freely criticized freely all the time. And because we have free speech, there are multiple alternatives that act as checks and balances across our culture as a whole. In other words, comparing Fox to the media situation in China or Russia is just ridiculous and irresponsible.
- nitrogen 12y ago
  In other words, comparing Fox to the media situation in China or Russia is just ridiculous and irresponsible. The point of "comparing" anything to anything else is to see how the things are alike, and how they differ, as in "compare and contrast." If such comparisons are to be verboten, even if by stigma and not by fiat, then we are giving up an essential tool of understanding.
  - javert 12y ago
    Let's look up definitions of compare. https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Acompare&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Acompare&ie=utf-8&oe... I'm using it in a valid way, and not in the way you suggest, and it's clear from context which meaning I am using.
    - nitrogen 12y ago
      That may be the meaning you are using, but that's not what the other commenters are doing.

greenleafjacob 12y ago

> China and Russia are both (quite unique) examples of countries with an unfathomable degree of control over their citizens. It can be hard to grasp occasionally, coming from a western mindset but for the vast majority within said countries, the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. North Korea is an extreme caricature of this pattern. Perhaps you ought to read the retracted preface from Animal Farm [1]. [1]: http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/Orwell.html http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/Orwell.html

gbog 12y ago
> [China] an unfathomable degree of control over their citizens You obviously haven't been there. I think Chinese gov have the same level of control over its citizens as France: very erratic, sometime works well, some people try to play with fire, but overall the Chinese are all but lobotomized robots in the hands of a few puppet masters. There's over 500 strikes a year in China, not counting all the ones not big enough to be counted. I have seen streets of pedestrians walking against policemen, who were sweating of fear. Right now the prez is quite appreciated and trusted by the people, so he probably has some level of control, but this is earned by its fight against corruption, and not by some matrix-like brainwashing system.
- westiseast 12y ago
  I have been there ;) You're misinterpreting the nature of control. Yes, there are protests, mostly because the government lets them happen. It helps people let off steam, it gives the government an indication of how people feel, and quite often there are conflicting interests which the Party can rise above (remember, government and the Party are not the same thing). So, often it's a bunch of workers protesting against a company, or a corrupt local official in one department - the Party can let that happen, and choose sides later when they've decided which way the wind is blowing. Policemen are shitting themselves because the Party mostly sides with the security apparatus but today they might let the protest get a bit wild if they want to allow the protesters a bit of leeway, and then those untrained, poorly equipped policemen will be screwed. When stuff he Party doesn't like happens, they shut it down using methods you (on the whole) cannot do in France, the UK, and the U.S. Try introducing political censorship of material critical to Hollande. Try censoring books and courses in university. Try locking up journalists and writers (on tax evasion charges of course) when they say stuff you disagree with. Try rolling out the tanks when a protest gets out of hand. Etc. So don't be fooled by the seemingly light hand of the gov - they've intentionally backed off from the Cultural Recolution level of control because they know that most people don't give a damn, and if left alone they will do nothing. How about an experiment - I'll hold up an anti government sign in front of the French parliament, and you do the same in Tiananmen Square and we'll see how much control the Chinese gov has ;)

jhedwards 12y ago

> the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted I have to disagree with others that this part of your comment is a bit too strong. I lived in China for two years and many people I talked to would say something like "We admire America because it is so free, our country is just so corrupt" or whisper something like "when the US says our human rights are bad, we agree."

LiweiZ 12y ago
I think both of you are correct. Those distortions to that extent do not fully disable every individual's awareness regarding something not good.
j42 12y ago
I think the disillusionment exists, especially among the youth and democratically-minded. In my opinion, for such a regime to be successful in the modern day it must exist... that said, I would say the most telling aspect is how these particular individuals view their goals and/or definitions of "success." America certainly isn't the democratic ideal, however in contrast it's apparent how a sustained cultural ideal can eventually swing the legislative tide (LBGT rights, marijuana legalization, et al.). From my experience, even the Chinese protests are government-sanctioned ("order through controlled disorder") and the communication happening on platforms such as Sina Weibo is generally devoid of any cultural or philosophical taboos. I'm hesitant to be too strong about this because truthfully I haven't spent much time there in the most recent years, however I can't say I've seen any indication this has changed--everything points to more of the same, and the most recent Hong Kong protests provided a rather interesting look at how this cognitive dissonance plays out in an environment where maintaining such control (due to its international economic relevance) is more difficult.
- stevendaniels 12y ago
  >I think the disillusionment exists, especially among the youth and democratically-minded. This. Except older, middle-class people are even more disillusioned than the young. As a rule, older Chinese people won't talk about their disillusionment, but those who lived through the 50s and 60s faced huge obstacles. They live lives of quiet desperation.

abalone 12y ago

The difference between the U.S. and China/Russia is that the people in China/Russia know the media is controlled by the powers that be. Here, our press is also "defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs." We just believe that it's free. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

obstinate 12y ago
It is rather stupid to equate the degree of media manipulation in the West vs. China and Russia.
- _abattoir 12y ago
  Not at all. The Western governments simply have to hide it better.
- abalone 12y ago
  I didn't equate them. I said mind control is worse in the West. And, I cited a detailed analysis of the topic.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - nilbot 12y ago
    The fact that you at least have an analysis article to cite from kinda proves he was on point, and you are not, not entirely. Which control is more ultimate, you can type some but mainstream ignores you or you cannot type at all?
- colordrops 12y ago
  You are right. The degree and sophistication of media manipulation is profoundly greater in the west. While the Chinese block a lot of media, the manipulation is minimal. Most Chinese are very cynical and know exactly what is going on. The west, or at least the US, traps people in a matrix of sorts where they don't even see the manipulation. The narrative is exquisitely framed and guided to leave people with a sense of moral superiority and basic faith in the system despite perceived flaws, as is ironically exhibited by your comment. edit: some good resources on the history and nature of western media manipulation are the BBC documentary "The Century of Self" and Noam Chomsky's book "Manufacturing Consent".

antocv 12y ago

> It can be hard to grasp occasionally, coming from a western mindset but for the vast majority within said countries, the entire reality they see and what they believe to be true is heavily distorted--in that, it is defined by the vision of the oligarchy and information is carefully controlled to produce a desired set of beliefs. You are delusional if you believe the above doesnt apply to US and EU countries.

UhUhUhUh 12y ago

There are just as many (and few) conscious people in any country on the planet. Thinking otherwise is inaccurate and also reinforces and in fact validates the efforts of local powers to rally a larger part of their subjects in defence of a cultural, irrelevant but real, identity, thus muddling the problem. There were as many (and few) resistants in Nazi Germany as there were in France. I see all these people as my "brothers/sisters" and I don't like it when they are drowned in a sea of commiseration.