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This optimization may as well become global when it'll come to hiring in the future. Quote from the post: [...] what it is about the current stack that mak

This optimization may as well become global when it'll come to hiring in the future. Quote from the post: [...] what it is about the current stack that makes solving the problem prohibitively expensive and difficult Etsy, as a very successful PHP shop, surely understands that PHP codebase itself presents an expense in a form of non-hired smart engineers that pass on the company because they won't work with this language. Plus, there are examples when the local optimization (i.e. staying with whatever legacy stack because it's proven) may lead to a global failure because of the unmaintainable "spaghetti blob" codebase with duck tape everywhere.

ThrustVectoring 12y ago
To me, that explains why Etsy has trouble with new tools and languages - they can't hire the developers it'd take to successfully run a project outside of the tools they are used to. Analogously, if you promote by external hiring, you hemorrhage the kind of employee you'd want to promote internally. If you always stay in a particular sandbox, you lose the kind of employee that can work outside it.
gfodor 12y ago
If PHP is a deal breaker then that person isn't the type of person you want to hire, since they obviously care more about incidental issues like language choice than solving real problems. That's not to say people can't groan about it (like any other workplace annoyance) but I'll still go work somewhere doing amazing things even if the cafeteria food kind of sucks. Anecdotally, it usually turns out that good engineering practices can be brought into any medium. PHP comes with a higher than average number of foot guns, and there is a lot of terrible PHP code out there that is unfortunate to find when you Google something, but it's self evident that a good engineering organization can build solid systems in PHP. (See also: the diligent use of a specific set of C++ features in shops building cutting edge graphics/game technology.)
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  It's not incidental -- choice of language has a massive impact on your developers' day-to-day experience as a human being, and many of the best programmers will find themselves incredibly frustrated by using a language like PHP (not because of ego but because PHP has properties which makes it frustrating to work with). Of course, from a certain mindset I suppose anyone unwilling to sacrifice their happiness on the altar of your corporation's profit might be dubious... the question then becomes whether this affects recruitment and retention, and if so, whether you can still accomplish the things you want with mediocre talent and high turnover...
- gclaramunt 12y ago
  You see C++ used in graphics/game because it strength is low level memory/cpu control needed for cutting edge work. PHP is optimized for "time-to-market" not cutting edge, so chances are the "real problems" you want to hire for are not that interesting. Heck, a big advantage is PHP is that most of the problems you encounter are already solved for you. Most of the time, "use of PHP" correlates to "not really interesting problems", so is a good proxy to use when deciding where to work :)
- sheepmullet 12y ago
  The truth is that even at great companies there is plenty of "crud work" to do. It is important work and you are solving real problems but there is little personal/professional growth or learning. One way to keep that kind of work interesting and to provide growth and learning is to use new/different tools and technology to do it.
- tensor 12y ago
  You are assuming it's an either or scenario. For good engineers, it's not. They can choose a place that solves real problems and uses nice technology.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

ThrustVectoring 12y ago

To me, that explains why Etsy has trouble with new tools and languages - they can't hire the developers it'd take to successfully run a project outside of the tools they are used to. Analogously, if you promote by external hiring, you hemorrhage the kind of employee you'd want to promote internally. If you always stay in a particular sandbox, you lose the kind of employee that can work outside it.

gfodor 12y ago

If PHP is a deal breaker then that person isn't the type of person you want to hire, since they obviously care more about incidental issues like language choice than solving real problems. That's not to say people can't groan about it (like any other workplace annoyance) but I'll still go work somewhere doing amazing things even if the cafeteria food kind of sucks. Anecdotally, it usually turns out that good engineering practices can be brought into any medium. PHP comes with a higher than average number of foot guns, and there is a lot of terrible PHP code out there that is unfortunate to find when you Google something, but it's self evident that a good engineering organization can build solid systems in PHP. (See also: the diligent use of a specific set of C++ features in shops building cutting edge graphics/game technology.)

fennecfoxen 12y ago
It's not incidental -- choice of language has a massive impact on your developers' day-to-day experience as a human being, and many of the best programmers will find themselves incredibly frustrated by using a language like PHP (not because of ego but because PHP has properties which makes it frustrating to work with). Of course, from a certain mindset I suppose anyone unwilling to sacrifice their happiness on the altar of your corporation's profit might be dubious... the question then becomes whether this affects recruitment and retention, and if so, whether you can still accomplish the things you want with mediocre talent and high turnover...
gclaramunt 12y ago
You see C++ used in graphics/game because it strength is low level memory/cpu control needed for cutting edge work. PHP is optimized for "time-to-market" not cutting edge, so chances are the "real problems" you want to hire for are not that interesting. Heck, a big advantage is PHP is that most of the problems you encounter are already solved for you. Most of the time, "use of PHP" correlates to "not really interesting problems", so is a good proxy to use when deciding where to work :)
sheepmullet 12y ago
The truth is that even at great companies there is plenty of "crud work" to do. It is important work and you are solving real problems but there is little personal/professional growth or learning. One way to keep that kind of work interesting and to provide growth and learning is to use new/different tools and technology to do it.
tensor 12y ago
You are assuming it's an either or scenario. For good engineers, it's not. They can choose a place that solves real problems and uses nice technology.
deleted 12y ago
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