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So the Dems gutted the bill(from single payer), just to gain a single Republican vote?

by vaksel 17y ago

spamizbad 17y ago
The bill didn't start from single payer - it started as offering a public option, which would co-exist with existing private plans, which would theoretically be available to all citizens as an option. The United States attempted implementing a single-payer system during the FDR Administration, which fizzled before it left the white house, and then again during the LBJ Administration, which was cut down to what we now call Medicare/Medicaid via the Social Security Act of 1965.
- vaksel 17y ago
  which just goes to show you that dems don't know how to negotiate. You never start off with a compromise, you start off with something you have no hope of getting and slowly get down to the compromise position.
btilly 17y ago
Single payer was never on the table. Despite having majority support in public surveys, even thinking about it would galvanize all aspects of the health care system to fight tooth and nail against the bill. Big pharm would fight because they'd expect to see the price of drugs drop. Insurance companies would fight because they would no longer have a business. The AMA would fight because they have too many connections with the other two not to unify. In fact even the massively watered down version called "the public option" is marginal. Which is why you keep on hearing about how it is in this version, out of that one, in the next, and so on.
trominos 17y ago
If you have no idea what you're talking about, please don't use incendiary language.
- davidw 17y ago
  Incendiary language is basically what you're likely to wind up with when you discuss politics on the internet. Yes, even on sites like this one; vaksel isn't just some random guy who joined the site yesterday. Which is why I keep harping about keeping these types of articles off this site.
  - ericd 17y ago
    Perhaps there is a case for creating a tag that can be added via flag for non-hacker news news, which is easily filterable as off topic, and is filtered out by default? This could potentially have worse effects on the dynamics of the site than these articles themselves, but I am interested to hear what this community has to say on subjects like these.
    - Klondike 17y ago
      You can't run away from issues like this; they're news, they're important. If HN is gonna survive and thrive, it's gonna have to be tough enough to get through posts like this. Really, the ratio of thoughtful-to-irrational is way higher here than on even Reddit. It's all good.
      - davidw 17y ago
        The problem is that that ratio is not stable over time. Political posts attract people interested in debating politics, which is a much larger group than people interested in hacking and startups. Also, even (especially?) amongst smart people, there is a large range of thoughts; from some guy here whose profile says "venture communist" (whatever the hell that is) to plenty of libertarians, and everything in between. Most of us are likely to be relatively convinced of our views, making debate mostly fruitless and quite potentially incendiary. Also, yes, you can run away from these discussions; the site is moderated. Other sites with a narrow focus (lambda the ultimate) do just fine. It's sites that grow and grow that decay. Also, if it's "news" and "important" then there are plenty of other sites where you can talk about it all you want. There are not many other sites for the discussion of hacking and startups though.

So the Dems gutted the bill(from single payer), just to gain a single Republican vote?

by vaksel 17y ago

So the Dems gutted the bill(from single payer), just to gain a single Republican vote?

The bill didn't start from single payer - it started as offering a public option, which would co-exist with existing private plans, which would theoretically be available to all citizens as an option. The United States attempted implementing a single-payer system during the FDR Administration, which fizzled before it left the white house, and then again during the LBJ Administration, which was cut down to what we now call Medicare/Medicaid via the Social Security Act of 1965.

vaksel 17y ago
which just goes to show you that dems don't know how to negotiate. You never start off with a compromise, you start off with something you have no hope of getting and slowly get down to the compromise position.

btilly 17y ago

Single payer was never on the table. Despite having majority support in public surveys, even thinking about it would galvanize all aspects of the health care system to fight tooth and nail against the bill. Big pharm would fight because they'd expect to see the price of drugs drop. Insurance companies would fight because they would no longer have a business. The AMA would fight because they have too many connections with the other two not to unify. In fact even the massively watered down version called "the public option" is marginal. Which is why you keep on hearing about how it is in this version, out of that one, in the next, and so on.

trominos 17y ago

If you have no idea what you're talking about, please don't use incendiary language.

davidw 17y ago
Incendiary language is basically what you're likely to wind up with when you discuss politics on the internet. Yes, even on sites like this one; vaksel isn't just some random guy who joined the site yesterday. Which is why I keep harping about keeping these types of articles off this site.
- ericd 17y ago
  Perhaps there is a case for creating a tag that can be added via flag for non-hacker news news, which is easily filterable as off topic, and is filtered out by default? This could potentially have worse effects on the dynamics of the site than these articles themselves, but I am interested to hear what this community has to say on subjects like these.
  - Klondike 17y ago
    You can't run away from issues like this; they're news, they're important. If HN is gonna survive and thrive, it's gonna have to be tough enough to get through posts like this. Really, the ratio of thoughtful-to-irrational is way higher here than on even Reddit. It's all good.
    - davidw 17y ago
      The problem is that that ratio is not stable over time. Political posts attract people interested in debating politics, which is a much larger group than people interested in hacking and startups. Also, even (especially?) amongst smart people, there is a large range of thoughts; from some guy here whose profile says "venture communist" (whatever the hell that is) to plenty of libertarians, and everything in between. Most of us are likely to be relatively convinced of our views, making debate mostly fruitless and quite potentially incendiary. Also, yes, you can run away from these discussions; the site is moderated. Other sites with a narrow focus (lambda the ultimate) do just fine. It's sites that grow and grow that decay. Also, if it's "news" and "important" then there are plenty of other sites where you can talk about it all you want. There are not many other sites for the discussion of hacking and startups though.