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Your argumentation makes sense and I enjoyed reading it, unfortunately you just followed Godwin's law. Your parent comment could have just wanted to point out,

Your argumentation makes sense and I enjoyed reading it, unfortunately you just followed Godwin's law. Your parent comment could have just wanted to point out, that the western world is not perfect and we should be (as always) careful when judging. He or she could have found a better example, though, directly comparing religious legislation to religious legislation. Being reflective does not always equal cultural relativism.

harperlee 12y ago
Also, it is fallacious to suggest, that, because of the fact that it was initially formulated by fascists as a propagandistic weapon, postmodernist cultural relativism is false, or not a useful view of the world. If fact I think it is very useful to stop and consider that point of view, and be able to reflect on it, and reach conclusions about why it is or it is not a good cosmovision to have.
- pjlegato 12y ago
  If you reread my argument, you will see that I never said the fact that fascists invented moral relativism makes it false. I rather argued that those who adopt this viewpoint are aligning themselves not only with fascists but with all manner of other tyrants and dictators who commit what most people regard as horrid atrocities, and that moreover moral relativists are required (insofar as they wish to avoid hypocrisy) to morally and philosophically support these acts. I believe that most western moral relativists do not realize this. I am pointing out that moral relativism is not an inherently leftist or "nice" viewpoint, contrary to common opinion among western intellectuals. I said nothing about whether it was true or false.
monort 12y ago
I think this are better cases: prosecution in US for possession of a manga drawing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#2005_Virginia_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornog... It's awful how often i think, that something can't happen in a developed world, and after googling for a precedent I find it.
- pjlegato 12y ago
  The specific case doesn't matter at all: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
  - monort 12y ago
    It matters, because the initial assertion was that such behavior hampers investment. But similar law is not a problem for US, so probably it's not a problem for investment in Myanmar too.
pjlegato 12y ago
I would really like to see people stop using "Godwin's Law" as a rhetorical cudgel, as though it were making a substantive comment that somehow refutes and invalidates any possible reference to fascists. In this case, the reference was relevant to the discussion. The fact that some people have given a cutesy name to the act of referencing fascists is not a substantive or relevant point. As for the other point, I understand very well that the parent comment was trying to point out that the western world is also not perfect and so we should be careful when judging. That is indeed precisely the substance of my counterargument: this is exactly the "tu quoque fallacy." The moral imperfection of some other actor is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether a given actor is morally correct.

harperlee 12y ago

Also, it is fallacious to suggest, that, because of the fact that it was initially formulated by fascists as a propagandistic weapon, postmodernist cultural relativism is false, or not a useful view of the world. If fact I think it is very useful to stop and consider that point of view, and be able to reflect on it, and reach conclusions about why it is or it is not a good cosmovision to have.

pjlegato 12y ago
If you reread my argument, you will see that I never said the fact that fascists invented moral relativism makes it false. I rather argued that those who adopt this viewpoint are aligning themselves not only with fascists but with all manner of other tyrants and dictators who commit what most people regard as horrid atrocities, and that moreover moral relativists are required (insofar as they wish to avoid hypocrisy) to morally and philosophically support these acts. I believe that most western moral relativists do not realize this. I am pointing out that moral relativism is not an inherently leftist or "nice" viewpoint, contrary to common opinion among western intellectuals. I said nothing about whether it was true or false.

monort 12y ago

I think this are better cases: prosecution in US for possession of a manga drawing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#2005_Virginia_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornog... It's awful how often i think, that something can't happen in a developed world, and after googling for a precedent I find it.

pjlegato 12y ago
The specific case doesn't matter at all: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
- monort 12y ago
  It matters, because the initial assertion was that such behavior hampers investment. But similar law is not a problem for US, so probably it's not a problem for investment in Myanmar too.

pjlegato 12y ago

I would really like to see people stop using "Godwin's Law" as a rhetorical cudgel, as though it were making a substantive comment that somehow refutes and invalidates any possible reference to fascists. In this case, the reference was relevant to the discussion. The fact that some people have given a cutesy name to the act of referencing fascists is not a substantive or relevant point. As for the other point, I understand very well that the parent comment was trying to point out that the western world is also not perfect and so we should be careful when judging. That is indeed precisely the substance of my counterargument: this is exactly the "tu quoque fallacy." The moral imperfection of some other actor is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether a given actor is morally correct.