4 ms·

Your thesis seems to be "If (if you don't do X, then you starve to death), then X is slavery", but I don't think that's true. Think of small hunter-gatherer gro

by Jimmy 12y ago

Your thesis seems to be "If (if you don't do X, then you starve to death), then X is slavery", but I don't think that's true. Think of small hunter-gatherer groups that lived before the advent of agriculture. If they didn't go out and find food, they would die. But it doesn't seem right to say they were slaves.

littletimmy 12y ago
Good point. But in the case of the hunter-gatherers a person is not working for someone else who will then provide him sustenance. That is not the case with an office worker. I agree with you in that the topic is more complex than I initially made it seem. In the case of the office worker, hopefully the worker produces something of which then the capital owner takes some and leaves the rest to the office worker. That seems better than slavery, but only marginally. It actually sounds more like indetured sevitude in a feudal system (i.e. plant my land, we split the crop). We could debate whether that's slavery or not.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  You still have the option of working for yourself to provide your own sustenance. It's called farming. Maybe our ancestors were foolish to give it up- maybe it's the idyllic lifestyle- but the fact is people voluntarily left it behind. What are you really advocating? Post-scarcity?
  - littletimmy 12y ago
    Ah, that's a good argument. It used to be that you had the option of farming. Back in the old days where all land was not somebody's, you could go into the wilderness and stake out a piece of land to live off like a homestead. This is no longer an option. Where are such pieces of land that I can go and cultivate? I'm an advocate of basic income. Or negative income tax if you want to call it that.
    - sliverstorm 12y ago
      It's been a long, long time since there was an abundance of completely free arable land that no-one had laid claim to. You aren't talking about "the old days", you're talking about the prehistoric days when there were few humans. Saying "farming isn't an option because you can't get land for free" is, IMO, a bit of silly argument. Arable land is (just like everything else) a scarce resource in a heavily populated world; it's not by someone's evil machinations that you can't freely have as much of it as you please. That's not slavery, that's competition for scarce resources. If you did want to farm, it's (very roughly) $1k/acre in many places, and you only need a couple acres to feed yourself.
      - ninguem2 12y ago
        You could still do it in the 19th century you didn't have a problem with killing the natives.
        sliverstorm 12y ago
        If killing people to take their land is valid, then by golly you can still do it in the 21st century.
      - echaozh 12y ago
        If someone really wants to try, he can always loan money and buy land/start a company. This is hacker news after all. Feeling being slaved can be a very good motivation for entrepreneurship. Moaning about it is lame, in this circle at least. Social safety net is not for the brave of hearts.
    - Kalium 12y ago
      > This is no longer an option. Where are such pieces of land that I can go and cultivate? Pretty much everywhere. Why do you think homesteading is no longer an option?
      - coderzach 12y ago
        You have to buy the land.

by Jimmy 12y ago

littletimmy 12y ago

Good point. But in the case of the hunter-gatherers a person is not working for someone else who will then provide him sustenance. That is not the case with an office worker. I agree with you in that the topic is more complex than I initially made it seem. In the case of the office worker, hopefully the worker produces something of which then the capital owner takes some and leaves the rest to the office worker. That seems better than slavery, but only marginally. It actually sounds more like indetured sevitude in a feudal system (i.e. plant my land, we split the crop). We could debate whether that's slavery or not.

sliverstorm 12y ago
You still have the option of working for yourself to provide your own sustenance. It's called farming. Maybe our ancestors were foolish to give it up- maybe it's the idyllic lifestyle- but the fact is people voluntarily left it behind. What are you really advocating? Post-scarcity?
- littletimmy 12y ago
  Ah, that's a good argument. It used to be that you had the option of farming. Back in the old days where all land was not somebody's, you could go into the wilderness and stake out a piece of land to live off like a homestead. This is no longer an option. Where are such pieces of land that I can go and cultivate? I'm an advocate of basic income. Or negative income tax if you want to call it that.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    It's been a long, long time since there was an abundance of completely free arable land that no-one had laid claim to. You aren't talking about "the old days", you're talking about the prehistoric days when there were few humans. Saying "farming isn't an option because you can't get land for free" is, IMO, a bit of silly argument. Arable land is (just like everything else) a scarce resource in a heavily populated world; it's not by someone's evil machinations that you can't freely have as much of it as you please. That's not slavery, that's competition for scarce resources. If you did want to farm, it's (very roughly) $1k/acre in many places, and you only need a couple acres to feed yourself.
    - ninguem2 12y ago
      You could still do it in the 19th century you didn't have a problem with killing the natives.
      - sliverstorm 12y ago
        If killing people to take their land is valid, then by golly you can still do it in the 21st century.
    - echaozh 12y ago
      If someone really wants to try, he can always loan money and buy land/start a company. This is hacker news after all. Feeling being slaved can be a very good motivation for entrepreneurship. Moaning about it is lame, in this circle at least. Social safety net is not for the brave of hearts.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    > This is no longer an option. Where are such pieces of land that I can go and cultivate? Pretty much everywhere. Why do you think homesteading is no longer an option?
    - coderzach 12y ago
      You have to buy the land.