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Racing goes electric: At the track with Formula E, the first e-racing series
- jkot 12y agoThere are limits on everything: acceleration, maximal speed and even noise. Formula E will be boring same way as Formula 1. Identical cars circling around the track.
- jmartinpetersen 12y agoIt seems your data on F-1 are slightly out of date. Yes, the rules are the same for everyone, but each team optimizes within them differently. As for identical cars, I guess McLaren only wish they had a car like Mercedes or Ferrari (or any old car that could actually last an entire race).
- bitL 12y agoThere is no longer awe associated with breaking records/introducing diverse tech into motorsports anymore. I guess previous generations had it better as they could watch how somebody breaks 190, 200, 210, ... mph barrier, run engines with 900, 1000, 1100hp for the first time, run two sets of rear or front wheels etc. None of that applies now, motorsports are now regulated and consolidated. New revival attempts introduce super ugly cars (look at IndyCars in the past 10 years, or even current Formula E), all mind-blowing racing that deviates from the norm is now banned (Zanardi's "The Pass" can't happen anymore), engines can't be pushed to higher hp unless we want to allow multiple casualties per race, as Firestone Firehawk 600 shown us in 2001 we already crossed the threshold of what humans can withstand and had to backtrack... F1 is now boring (who cares that some German guy in a red car wins?) and mainly a world unto itself with very little connection to the real world as the rules are a result of decades of political fights (i.e. they aren't representing technological pinnacle of what is possible rather what powerful people allowed each other). There were glimmers of interesting things happening with drifting etc. but they never had mainstream potential. I really don't see much future in this, the existing motorsports can be probably milked for a while with a proper marketing strategy, but the future lies elsewhere.
- jkot 12y ago> engines can't be pushed to higher hp unless we want to allow multiple casualties per race, We need robots than.
- bitL 12y agoMore like sophisticated human augmentations...
- TheLoneWolfling 12y agoIt would be interesting to do remote control. I.e. nobody in the car. Two classes: one with restrictions (i.e. driver must be in control - no assists / etc. May be tricky to define.), one without (want to go fully computer-controlled? Sure!).
- andrewchambers 12y agoRemote control means you can tweak the scale of the cars/races.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y agoYep. Although it would be interesting to go "you must have a space where a person can fit, and if you ever kill the dummy inside you lose the race" (defined a little more precisely, of course). Remember: you probably want to keep the scale vaguely car-size. That way you'll get the most applicable innovation coming out of it. And also that way it'll tend to be the most interesting to spectators.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y agoYep. Although it would be interesting to go "you must have a space where a person can fit, and if you ever kill the dummy inside you lose the race" (defined a little more precisely, of course). Remember: you probably want to keep the scale vaguely car-size. That way you'll get the most applicable innovation coming out of it. And also that way it'll tend to be the most interesting to spectators.
- dublinben 12y agoFormula E is actually worse than Formula 1, since they are built by the same manufacturer. You can't level the same criticism at F1 these days, with a dominant team like Mercedes.
- TallGuyShort 12y agoRenault's monopoly is temporary - it's to bootstrap the series. I think they should replace F1's every-constructor-makes-their-own-chassis rule with a rule to have everyone build their own powerplants / drives. That's where you want this series to provide innovation.
- daphreak 12y agoThat is the plan: http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/february/eight-manufacturers-to-enter-fia-formula-e-from-second-season.aspx http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2015/february/eight-manuf...
- spott 12y agoI don't know, the sport of it, rather than the engineering of it, is now more important. Instead of the company with the most money, the driver skill is more important this round.
- mehhhhhhh 12y agoYes. Just watched a race where two different race leaders lost, because they( and not the car ) made a mistake.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- brc 12y agoIf you think formula 1 cars are identical, you're not really paying attention. They look the same in the way a Lenovo and an Apple look the same. There are rules on track and wheelbase, crash structure and aero wing size that tend to dictate the overall silhouette, but from there, everything else is very different.
- driverdan 12y agoIdentical cars make for better, more exciting racing. It comes down to driver skill instead of who can invest the most money. That said, I think restrictions like F1 are better because they lead to interesting innovations.
- mehhhhhhh 12y agoVideo of the race from the second page: https://youtu.be/fvxRqC8UoAs?t=2m55s https://youtu.be/fvxRqC8UoAs?t=2m55s Engine sound is amazing. This is the first time I have heard tire screech in a race. I wonder why. :-) The problems seems to be battery capacity. They have to switch cars. Since the racing is usually done on a closed circuit they could implement inductive charging in the future( and perhaps power-ups ). Who wouldn't want to watch that?
- adwn 12y agoHere's a video without an annoying commentator, so that you can actually hear the engine: https://youtu.be/IptBVdys-mo?t=1m2s https://youtu.be/IptBVdys-mo?t=1m2s And yes, the engine sound is amazing! It sounds so much more futuristic than Formula 1.
- blhack 12y agoHuh, it really sounds like he's shifting. Do these electric cars have transmissions? edit: yeah, they do! Fascinating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Formula_E_Championship#Car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIA_Formula_E_Championship#Car
- ufmace 12y agoI read that in the article. I'd also like to read why a five-speed transmisison is beneficial on these cars - I suppose the motors still have a RPM-based powerband, even if it isn't as drastic as gas engines?
- daphreak 12y agoElectric motors do have a constant power region and its ideal to operate there. I would expect teams to modify their transmissions to better fit their motor as more parts of the car are opened up for modification.
- aetherspawn 12y ago
- mapt 12y agoWhat I want to see is not heroic drivers like NASCAR, nor heroic billionaires investing in very similar tweaks, like Formula 1, but a diversity of creative conceptual engineering, competing in the same challenges, for lots of money. Things like DARPA sponsors: The Grand Challenge in self-driving cars, and the Robotics Challenge. The Ansari X-prize also applies. BattleBots was a decent attempt at a sport along these lines. Fields where true novelty still exists, and there are no consistently obvious paths forward. My impression as a non-fan is that Formula 1 only achieves divergent innovation on rare occasions, and next season or two everyone is doing it or it's been banned by the race sponsors.
- f055 12y agoYou are spot-on! At the moment, F1 has little diversity and lots of restricting regulations. Formula-E is even worse, with everyone driving the same cars. NASCAR, or Indy, is not better either. All the revolution and innovation is in WEC (World Endurance Championship), it's the one with the Le Mans round. This year, 4 strong competitors arrive in the top class and this is the series to watch http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-pictures/toyota/contenders-ready-porsche-and-toyotas-2015-le-mans-racers-revealed/ http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-official-picture...
- daphreak 12y agoEveryone is driving the same car only for the first season. Second season they are opening up the motor and inverter for improvement and modification. In the third it sounds like the battery will be opened up as well. My guess is that they want to keep things as competitive as possible between the drivers. Slowly opening up the playing field for modifications will keep the races interesting but still foster innovation (at least for the first few years).
- gsnedders 12y agoThe main aim with the limited number of allowed modifications is to keep the cost of entry low, such that the brand new championship actually gets entrants. It's hard to justify a large budget for an unheard of championship.
- bitL 12y agoAs a former avid motorsports fan I believe all motorsport racing forms are dying as the cars are more and more considered a nuisance by young generations and they seem to have plateaued with their mechanical capabilities for a while. To return fun back to motorsports and enable everyone to compete if they want, I think best would be to have RC models with realistic characteristics (or even real cars) and real-time camera/remote driving ability. Most fun nowadays is in simulators anyway, no TV experience can translate to what one can experience in a simulator competing against other people (sorry F1). Things like renting a NASCAR on an oval or Porsche on a Nürburgring aren't for everyone.
- usaphp 12y agoI don't know, those tires look hideous and the sound...the best thing I love about formula 1 is engine sound, these e-formula cars look and sound like a bunch of my son's remote control toys on a track. I don't find it exciting to watch
- jeremyrwelch 12y agoExcellent interview with Formula E founder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrTbdKe0XTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrTbdKe0XTo Best quote, when asked if he thought we could end our dependence on oil: "The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones." Really important to understand that this is just the first iteration of their plan. Goal is to get to single car for a full hour race within a few years. Agag says they now have many major cities approaching them about participating in the second year of Formula E, including San Francisco. Also, the cars are louder than most people realize, at 80 decibels.
- semerda 12y agoIt's all relative. 80 decibels in the day isn't that loud. It's the sound of a vacuum cleaner. At night on the other hand 80db is loud. Considering that the F1 are 140DB the sound differences are massive.
- MarkyC4 12y agoJust to add to this, 140dB isn't about twice as loud as 80dB as the units might lead you to believe, since the scale is logarithmic: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel These FE cars are MUCH quieter than their F1 cousins.
- rcxdude 12y agoWell, in terms of sound energy, but our hearing is also logarithmic, so 140dB will sound about twice as loud.
- zik 12y ago> an increase of 10db SPL is perceived to be approximately twice as loud From http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/2004-About-dB/ http://trace.wisc.edu/docs/2004-About-dB/ So it's really 2^6 = 64x as loud, perceptually.
- dmaz 12y ago
- Arubis 12y agoIt's awesome to see this hitting the prime time, but Formula E is far from the first. The National Electric Drag Racing association (http://www.nedra.com/ http://www.nedra.com/) has been around since 1996 and there's all kinds of good tires screeching (and golf cards popping wheelies).
- exDM69 12y agoFormula E's greatest strength is also its biggest weakness: the tracks they race on. The low noise levels make racing in city centers possible and brings a big crowd but the races are a bit boring. In my opinion, the best race footage of Formula E is from their pre-race testing ("event simulation") where they ran a full field of cars at Donington Park, a traditional purpose-built race track with long sweeping curves and significant elevation changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQNrtmSnQ1I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQNrtmSnQ1I
- CHY872 12y agoCity centre racetracks also come from the nature of electric power. Such tracks are usually much slower, which means that much less energy will be lost by means of air resistance, and the cars won't have enough space to reach top speed. This means they can run for longer, or with higher power.
- semerda 12y agoIf you ever been to a F1 it is the sound and smell of burning fossil fuels that adds to the energy and excitement of watching the race. I would not pay to just watch electrics race. 3 years ago at MotoGP they had electrics race and it drew little crowd. For consumer use yes I am totally for electrics but for the race track it will destroy the spirit of a Formula race. KERS is a great addition to the petrol motors but not a full electric replacement.
- aetherspawn 12y agoI just thought I'd chime in for Team Swinburne from Australia, which is a university team who R&D a brand new electric formula car each year. Amongst other challenges down here, the electric engines (which can only operate up to 100C) overheating in the 35C Australian ambient is a pretty big one. Not much of what we need actually exists, so we also engineer our own charging trolley, battery box and computer systems. Here's our 2014 car specs: http://www.teamswinburne.com/the-car-2014/ http://www.teamswinburne.com/the-car-2014/
- moe 12y agoI think they should just remove the drivers and let the engineers compete freely. That would be much more interesting to watch than the current yawn-fest of "which human will make the least mistakes on mostly identical cars"...
- TheLoneWolfling 12y agoIt's rather difficult to do that and keep some semblance of safety. Ultimately I think the simplest way to keep things sane would be to do something along the lines of "you have <x> amount of MJ worth of <fuel of your choice or electrical power> for the race" (which would then spawn all sorts of related rules about what exactly counts as fuel, but meh. Such is life.).
- moe 12y agoIt's rather difficult to do that and keep some semblance of safety. Huh? But that's partly the point, what do you need safety for when there's no drivers? Build a strong cage around the track so the spectators don't get hurt when a car lifts off at 400mph. And set hefty fines for when a robocar damages another robocar, so the participants are incentivized to win by racing rather than by elimination (which might actually be an interesting sub-genre of its own, though). And then let's just see how far the engineers can bend physics when they don't have to throttle everything down to accommodate for human safety and reflexes...
- TheLoneWolfling 12y agoOh, thought you were talking about driver-d cars. With driverless cars, I agree.
- Already__Taken 12y agoThose are basically WEC rules then.
- TheLoneWolfling 12y ago
- Htsthbjig 12y ago5 gear gearboxes? WHY? I have an electrical car. They don't need gearboxes, or probably one gear at all. Had they introduced gearboxes so pilots could feel they do something? If so they don't need gearboxes for that they could manually control the electronics control of the engine. That leaves the option of manufacturers of gearboxes wanting electric cars to use them. But this is stupid, and make no sense, as it makes the entire car heavyweight for resisting the torques. They are obsolete. The future is motors on wheels.
- aetherspawn 12y agoAs I said below, one reason they might run a transmission is so that they constantly run the engine in the most energy efficient zone (which might vary by up to 30%), giving them a longer battery life. There are other factors to consider about whether this is justified, however, like the losses introduced in the transmission. Whether the drivers are trained to take advantage of this is another story.
- rasz_pl 12y agoCars sound like the future. They want to aim at the younger crowd, but fail technologically. Its 2015, there should be live streaming from every cars front and back camera during the race.
- discardorama 12y agoI don't understand one thing: why do all cars have to be exactly the same? Here's a better idea: just set some specifications on the vehicles, and let the teams do their best to work within those specs. At the end of the season, all cars are open-sourced, so you can see what the others did. Come next season, the teams will have incorporated the best practices from the previous season and improved upon them. Rinse, lather, repeat.
- ourmandave 12y agoIt's like NASCAR, not about the car but the skill of the driver. Otherwise it becomes who has the better funding to afford the best engineering team and money for the lightest and strongest parts.
- discardorama 12y agoBut even NASCAR has teams of engineers trying to find legal (or questionable) tweaks. At this stage, when technical advances are needed, having a more open model might be better.
- pauldino 12y agoIf I understand it right that'll get going from the second season on. "From season two, Formula E will operate as an 'open championship', allowing teams and manufacturers the opportunity to showcase their own electrical energy innovations. Working to the technical specifications set out by the FIA, teams will focus their efforts on improving and developing powertrains and battery technology, with the aim of this filtering into the everyday electric vehicle market." http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/guide/overview.aspx http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/guide/overview.aspx
- WalterBright 12y agoMy kind of car sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPXHIMHIcvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPXHIMHIcvQ