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This article resonates with me. I find myself very often in this situation of trying to find meaning in what I do. When you tie this to evolution and what more

by harigov 12y ago

This article resonates with me. I find myself very often in this situation of trying to find meaning in what I do. When you tie this to evolution and what more or less appears to be biological machines trying to eek out some meaning in otherwise meaningless life, nothing seems to make sense any more. What's the point of anything at all? We try so hard to reason and find it hard when we reach the boundaries of reasoning and enter the domain of faith and beliefs, but choose to ignore them because they aren't scientific enough. I believe a much simpler notion is to treat yourself as an artist or an entertainer and look at your work as a means of enriching someone's life - not because of its utility or function or what not but just because its beautiful and brings out joy to people in your world, however small the number might be. We keep thinking about the whole world and forget about our own small world, when in reality, it's our small world that gives us all of our joy and happiness.

user7923489 12y ago
Wait. To our best knowledge we don't know whether there is a meaning of life, right? And it would be irrational to act based on a conjectured purpose if there isn't solid evidence for it. So even if we will burn in hell if we don't destroy ourselves, there is no solid evidence for that, so it would be irrational to do so. The best way of proceeding is then to keep our options open as long as possible. Our quasi-purpose is to find out whether there is a purpose in the first place.
- poopsmithe 12y ago
  Why look for a meaning when you can make your own?
  - rokhayakebe 12y ago
    That is what I think. Everything is free will. From the first particle which decided to Be, to me writing this comment, to Meaning.
    - user7923489 12y ago
      That's not what I mean. I mean that we need to actively look for intrinsic meaning of our existence, just to have the case covered that there really is a grand purpose and that we will be disadvantaged if we don't act in accordance to it.
- ZenoArrow 12y ago
  A "meaning of life" in the sense you're referring to implies two things... 1. That there was a creator of life that predetermined what our lives should mean. 2. That no other meaning except for the one described in point 1 is valid. It doesn't work that way, meaning is not singular and is not preset. A "meaning of life" sounds like a rational idea but you can't condense life down to a single meaningful goal without losing its essence. Life is what you make it.
  - user7923489 12y ago
    How can you prove, though, that meaning is neither singular, preset and nor condensable to a single goal? What if god does exist? Then it would be rational to act in a way that pleases god and thus it should be our goal to find out whether that is the case.
    - ZenoArrow 12y ago
      Let's explore that idea, what if a god exists... A god that designed us for a single purpose... Why would a god that needed us to fulfil a singular purpose give us the power to choose to not fulfil that purpose? Why would a god choose a purpose and then not clearly communicate that purpose? Why would a god give us the capacity for reflection and awareness, allowing us to derive our own meanings, if none of those meanings were valid? What would a single meaning of life even look like? Let's take a guess and say that love is the meaning of life. That would mean the only point of life was love. All the other experiences? Meaningless. Says who? Who says they're meaningless? "A meaning" is like "a sock". There is only one true sock, all other socks are false, only those that have this sock can truly know what a sock is, etc... You're trying to condense a potentially infinite group to a single example. As for the whole "beneficial to us" thing, in what sense? The whole "life after death" thing? Something else?
      - user7923489 12y ago
        In any sense. Why should we assume that our creator is sane? Perhaps they sell toy universes at the counter in grocery stores and we are in the hands of some cruel teenager in our host universe. Perhaps they run simulations to find a particular outcome of evolution. Maybe we are in some sort of digestive organ of a god which feasts on evolutionary structures which perform complex computations.
- harigov 12y ago
  Well, we do know about evolution, and you can make some inferences about the utility of life and that of our species based on that. Would it be based on partial information? Maybe. The point is - you can give any meaning that you want to your life, but meaning isn't just something that you choose one day and stick to it. Every reason that you make will essentially be bound to this ultimate purpose that you assign yourself to. It takes years of conscious effort before your "choice" reflects your "life".
  - user7923489 12y ago
    I mean that we are obliged to look for meaning just so that we consider the possibility that there indeed is meaning, so that we can act accordingly to avoid ending up in hell (or a similar place). And by that I don't mean the introspective, philosophical, non-falsifiable kind of meaning, but meaning somewhere encoded in the laws of physics, say, we are in a simulation and our creator will punish us if we destroy our planet.
    - ZenoArrow 12y ago
      If there's a heaven and a hell, who goes there? Will you go there? Will I go there? Who is this 'I'? Is 'I' a collection of thoughts and feelings? Does 'I' include some semblance of physical appearance? Where does this 'I' start and end? If 'I' eat an apple, is it still an apple or is it now 'I'? I realise these are tricky questions to think about, please try not to worry. If it helps, I can tell you that I've less fear of death after taking time to think about this sort of stuff, I hope in time you'll find a sense of peace too. If you want to explore it some more, I'm here for you.
      - user7923489 12y ago
        This reasoning immediately follows from an agnostic, scientific epistemology. A hypothetical theory of 'I' is 'a collection of elementary particles brought forth by evolution due to certain dynamics that are best described by quantum field theory and general relativity'. Who goes to hell depends on the particular situation we find ourselves in. Perhaps environmentalists would be spared.
pron 12y ago
The existentialists[1] made some of the most thoughtful treatments of the human condition (among them, my favorite sub-group is the absurdists, who regard the human condition as absurd). Existentialism, however, offers a rather naive view of humanity, as possessing an inherent essence (they were essentialists), like reason, or disparate personal essences to which one can and should be "authentic". Nevertheless, their texts serve as the basis for much of modern philosophy (yet they are very entertaining). [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism [2]: More modern philosophers, like Michel Foucault, while accepting the premise of an absurd existence, reject the notion of an inner human essence, and firmly place the human condition within spheres of influence which they called "power", which then served as the basis for the modern definition of politics as the theory (and practice) of power.
- pmoriarty 12y ago
  Sartre, one of the most renowned of all Existentialists, was famous for holding that, "existence preceeds essence." This is an anti-essentialist position.
  - pron 12y ago
    Sartre also said that existentialism is humanism, which is a load of crap, so what Sartre said of existentialism isn't necessarily what it is. What complicates matters further is that existentialism is many things -- it is basically "the philosophies of those called existentialists". Still, many existentialists emphasize authenticity (to one's nature), which is impossible if there is no essence (authentic to what?).
eli_gottlieb 12y ago
>What's the point of anything at all? >... >just because its beautiful and brings out joy to people in your world, however small the number might be You answered your own question.
- harigov 12y ago
  Yes, I was making a point about how my thoughts always end up in that kind of a question and I was proposing a way to look at life that might avoid such depressing situations.
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    What's depressing about beauty and joy?
rithmoflife 12y ago
From an evolutionary perspective, meaning is simply a tool that worked well enough to carry the genes that created it into subsequent generations (the same can be said for joy and happiness). Pondering our obsession with meaning and points might be more useful than trying to find them.

by harigov 12y ago

user7923489 12y ago

Wait. To our best knowledge we don't know whether there is a meaning of life, right? And it would be irrational to act based on a conjectured purpose if there isn't solid evidence for it. So even if we will burn in hell if we don't destroy ourselves, there is no solid evidence for that, so it would be irrational to do so. The best way of proceeding is then to keep our options open as long as possible. Our quasi-purpose is to find out whether there is a purpose in the first place.

poopsmithe 12y ago
Why look for a meaning when you can make your own?
- rokhayakebe 12y ago
  That is what I think. Everything is free will. From the first particle which decided to Be, to me writing this comment, to Meaning.
  - user7923489 12y ago
    That's not what I mean. I mean that we need to actively look for intrinsic meaning of our existence, just to have the case covered that there really is a grand purpose and that we will be disadvantaged if we don't act in accordance to it.
ZenoArrow 12y ago
A "meaning of life" in the sense you're referring to implies two things... 1. That there was a creator of life that predetermined what our lives should mean. 2. That no other meaning except for the one described in point 1 is valid. It doesn't work that way, meaning is not singular and is not preset. A "meaning of life" sounds like a rational idea but you can't condense life down to a single meaningful goal without losing its essence. Life is what you make it.
- user7923489 12y ago
  How can you prove, though, that meaning is neither singular, preset and nor condensable to a single goal? What if god does exist? Then it would be rational to act in a way that pleases god and thus it should be our goal to find out whether that is the case.
  - ZenoArrow 12y ago
    Let's explore that idea, what if a god exists... A god that designed us for a single purpose... Why would a god that needed us to fulfil a singular purpose give us the power to choose to not fulfil that purpose? Why would a god choose a purpose and then not clearly communicate that purpose? Why would a god give us the capacity for reflection and awareness, allowing us to derive our own meanings, if none of those meanings were valid? What would a single meaning of life even look like? Let's take a guess and say that love is the meaning of life. That would mean the only point of life was love. All the other experiences? Meaningless. Says who? Who says they're meaningless? "A meaning" is like "a sock". There is only one true sock, all other socks are false, only those that have this sock can truly know what a sock is, etc... You're trying to condense a potentially infinite group to a single example. As for the whole "beneficial to us" thing, in what sense? The whole "life after death" thing? Something else?
    - user7923489 12y ago
      In any sense. Why should we assume that our creator is sane? Perhaps they sell toy universes at the counter in grocery stores and we are in the hands of some cruel teenager in our host universe. Perhaps they run simulations to find a particular outcome of evolution. Maybe we are in some sort of digestive organ of a god which feasts on evolutionary structures which perform complex computations.
harigov 12y ago
Well, we do know about evolution, and you can make some inferences about the utility of life and that of our species based on that. Would it be based on partial information? Maybe. The point is - you can give any meaning that you want to your life, but meaning isn't just something that you choose one day and stick to it. Every reason that you make will essentially be bound to this ultimate purpose that you assign yourself to. It takes years of conscious effort before your "choice" reflects your "life".
- user7923489 12y ago
  I mean that we are obliged to look for meaning just so that we consider the possibility that there indeed is meaning, so that we can act accordingly to avoid ending up in hell (or a similar place). And by that I don't mean the introspective, philosophical, non-falsifiable kind of meaning, but meaning somewhere encoded in the laws of physics, say, we are in a simulation and our creator will punish us if we destroy our planet.
  - ZenoArrow 12y ago
    If there's a heaven and a hell, who goes there? Will you go there? Will I go there? Who is this 'I'? Is 'I' a collection of thoughts and feelings? Does 'I' include some semblance of physical appearance? Where does this 'I' start and end? If 'I' eat an apple, is it still an apple or is it now 'I'? I realise these are tricky questions to think about, please try not to worry. If it helps, I can tell you that I've less fear of death after taking time to think about this sort of stuff, I hope in time you'll find a sense of peace too. If you want to explore it some more, I'm here for you.
    - user7923489 12y ago
      This reasoning immediately follows from an agnostic, scientific epistemology. A hypothetical theory of 'I' is 'a collection of elementary particles brought forth by evolution due to certain dynamics that are best described by quantum field theory and general relativity'. Who goes to hell depends on the particular situation we find ourselves in. Perhaps environmentalists would be spared.

pron 12y ago

The existentialists[1] made some of the most thoughtful treatments of the human condition (among them, my favorite sub-group is the absurdists, who regard the human condition as absurd). Existentialism, however, offers a rather naive view of humanity, as possessing an inherent essence (they were essentialists), like reason, or disparate personal essences to which one can and should be "authentic". Nevertheless, their texts serve as the basis for much of modern philosophy (yet they are very entertaining). [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism [2]: More modern philosophers, like Michel Foucault, while accepting the premise of an absurd existence, reject the notion of an inner human essence, and firmly place the human condition within spheres of influence which they called "power", which then served as the basis for the modern definition of politics as the theory (and practice) of power.

pmoriarty 12y ago
Sartre, one of the most renowned of all Existentialists, was famous for holding that, "existence preceeds essence." This is an anti-essentialist position.
- pron 12y ago
  Sartre also said that existentialism is humanism, which is a load of crap, so what Sartre said of existentialism isn't necessarily what it is. What complicates matters further is that existentialism is many things -- it is basically "the philosophies of those called existentialists". Still, many existentialists emphasize authenticity (to one's nature), which is impossible if there is no essence (authentic to what?).

eli_gottlieb 12y ago

>What's the point of anything at all? >... >just because its beautiful and brings out joy to people in your world, however small the number might be You answered your own question.

harigov 12y ago
Yes, I was making a point about how my thoughts always end up in that kind of a question and I was proposing a way to look at life that might avoid such depressing situations.
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  What's depressing about beauty and joy?

rithmoflife 12y ago

From an evolutionary perspective, meaning is simply a tool that worked well enough to carry the genes that created it into subsequent generations (the same can be said for joy and happiness). Pondering our obsession with meaning and points might be more useful than trying to find them.