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As enjoyable as it might be to romanticize the Amish, the author carefully avoided mentioning the many ethical problems with Amish culture. As devout readers of

by chroma 12y ago

As enjoyable as it might be to romanticize the Amish, the author carefully avoided mentioning the many ethical problems with Amish culture. As devout readers of the Bible, the Amish follow Proverbs 13:24, which is commonly misquoted as, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Corporal punishment of children is common in both Amish households and schools. Likewise, the Amish positions on divorce, abortion, and homosexuality shouldn't surprise you. Their position on genetic testing is particularly egregious[1]: > Since almost all Amish descend from about 200 18th-century founders, genetic disorders that come out due to inbreeding exist in more isolated districts (an example of the founder effect). Some of these disorders are quite rare, or unique, and are serious enough to increase the mortality rate among Amish children. The majority of Amish accept these as "Gottes Wille" (God's will); they reject use of preventive genetic tests prior to marriage and genetic testing of unborn children to discover genetic disorders. We might be happier living more simply in small communities, but the Amish are a terrible example to follow. They reliably inflict needless suffering upon themselves and their children. And even if such a lifestyle was more enjoyable, it would only be available to a select minority. To feed over 7 billion human beings, we need mechanized agriculture and chemical fertilizers. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health

dasil003 12y ago
Ethical problems? Perhaps you mean their morality does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them. But I have a real hard time condemning their choices when I look at what we're doing as a culture. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
- anon4 12y ago
  Yes, yes that's exactly what he's saying. Their personal lifestyle choices are fine, but their ethics are absolutely not fine. To choose to live a simple life of manual labour and teach the same to your children is fine, but to bind their spirit by breaking their bodies is something I can't stand for. It's cruel and inhumane.
  - fdsfasa 12y ago
    They are set in their ways. To turn them onto the One True Path of Least Resistance we'll probably need a feet on the ground intervention, in the interests of unbound spirits and fleshy bodies.
  - visakanv 12y ago
    > to bind their spirit by breaking their bodies is something I can't stand for. It's cruel and inhumane. I agree. That said, I think it's worth reminding ourselves that there are a lot of cruel and inhumane things that we do to ourselves, too.
    - laumars 12y ago
      We shouldn't compare the worst of humanity against the worst of humanity. That gets us nowhere. Instead we should be comparing the worst against the best and looking to see how those issues can be rectified.
- weland 12y ago
  > Perhaps you mean their morality does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them. Absolutely. The Western civilization is ignorantly missing things like the incredible cultural value of sexual abuse ( http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371 , http://legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp http://legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature... ) or the beautiful parenting experience of raising children with nephropathic cystinosis (not to mention the happy lives of the children!) with that feeling of inner peace brought to you by knowledge that God wanted it like that. Open those closed, narrow minds of yours, people!
  - fdsfasa 12y ago
    I like how you managed to slip in 'the cultural value of', and then simply list alleged instances of sexual abuse within the Amish community neither of which implies that the practice is condoned or 'culturally valued'; because it's permissible, as long as we don't value it as a culture. The Amish aren't to be contrasted to 'Western civilisation'; they live in the West, they come from another part of the West, they practice Protestantism, an especially Western variety of a schism with a religion domiciled in the West. "But they're not civilised! They draw a line in the sand and reject technology beyond that line. They probably don't approve of genome editing. They've probably even banned it. All those happy children, never to be born."
    - weland 12y ago
      If you read the articles closely, you'll see that they're anything but "alleged". The "morality" dasil003 mentions, which "does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them", disagrees with the "wider culture" of the West on many topics, including the way that sexual abuse should be dealt with or how access to healthcare should be regulated.
serve_yay 12y ago
The point of the piece is not "every aspect of the Amish is good and they don't have any genetic problems, either".
Alleluja 12y ago
Not the whole world needs to follow liberal ideology. It's pluralism. A good thing. I'm surprised how often liberals turn out to be such a totalitarians. It makes me sad.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  I'm not sure I understand what of the grandparent post constitutes a liberal ideology.
  - Alleluja 12y ago
    I think you are pretending Dislike to all other lifestyles than a liberal one. Attack any religion or ideology that doesn't put humans and their lives on the pedestal. I.e. Amish put there their God. It goes right against the liberal values (i.e. human life and rights are the most important thing not some imaginatory "God"). I like pluralism. I like to live in a country where people believe in different things and are free to express it. Liberals made the US a bit totalitarian in a sense that you can get fired for petty remarks about gay or races. It almost feels like in a few more years we will have Jacobins with guilottines beheading everyone who doesn't want to be a liberal or cultural marxism proponent. Very funny how you pretend you don't see it. That's what we call left-wing hypocrisy: you are becoming exactly this what you originally wanted to fight: injust totalitarian crushing anyone not agreeing with your worldview.
    - moron4hire 12y ago
      So, I'm just guessing here, but "basic respect for all people" is the criteria you're applying to put someone into the "liberal" category? Can you explain what makes "petty remarks about gay or races" OK? Do whatever you want. But don't claim that gives you the right to harm others.
      - Alleluja 12y ago
        petty remark about gays == prompt employment termination == harming others ??? You mean the ex-employee was harmed as he lost his employment because 1st Amendment doesn't protect him anymore?
moron4hire 12y ago
You forgot their atrocious treatment of women and the issue of rape and sexual assault. Yep, the Amish have crime, too, but they tend to blaming the victim in these cases. The article also failed to mention the reason there are so many German Anabaptist sects in America: they got kicked out of Europe when they couldn't find a home sympathetic to their hyper strict version of Christianity. These sects were often started by lay-people who disagreed with the lack of beatings being dolled out by their church leader. I grew up around a lot of Amish people. At least when it comes to dealing with "the English", they are vain, sanctimonious assholes. I see little difference between them and the fundamentalist sects of Islam that we get forced in our faces by the news to paint all of Islam with the same brush.
douche 12y ago
Corporal punishment is really not that bad, pursued at a reasonable level. I don't really understand the zero-tolerance attitude that seems to prevail towards even paddling a misbehaving toddler's ass. Employed correctly, its something that doesn't need to be employed very often, and its a helluva lot better deterrent than making them stand in the corner or whatever liberal shaming-based method of discipline.
- chroma 12y ago
  If you hit an adult, it's assault. If you hit your dog, it's animal abuse. If you hit your spouse, it's domestic violence. Even drill sergeants aren't allowed to hit recruits. But if you hit your children– people who can't possibly defend themselves, people who depend on you to survive... it's allowed. It's even encouraged by a significant fraction of parents today. To me, this seems like a glaringly immoral exception to a general rule: only use violence in defense of self or others. After all, pets can be controlled without hitting. Why can't kids?
  - Alleluja 12y ago
    it's called "parents rights". It has been since forever. Sorry that not the whole worls lives in your utopian cultural marxist la-la-land.
    - moron4hire 12y ago
      What does any of that have to do with the labor theory of value?
      - Alleluja 12y ago
        you tell me, you started mixing it in your original post
        moron4hire 12y ago
        I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I am honestly confused.

by chroma 12y ago

dasil003 12y ago

Ethical problems? Perhaps you mean their morality does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them. But I have a real hard time condemning their choices when I look at what we're doing as a culture. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

anon4 12y ago
Yes, yes that's exactly what he's saying. Their personal lifestyle choices are fine, but their ethics are absolutely not fine. To choose to live a simple life of manual labour and teach the same to your children is fine, but to bind their spirit by breaking their bodies is something I can't stand for. It's cruel and inhumane.
- fdsfasa 12y ago
  They are set in their ways. To turn them onto the One True Path of Least Resistance we'll probably need a feet on the ground intervention, in the interests of unbound spirits and fleshy bodies.
- visakanv 12y ago
  > to bind their spirit by breaking their bodies is something I can't stand for. It's cruel and inhumane. I agree. That said, I think it's worth reminding ourselves that there are a lot of cruel and inhumane things that we do to ourselves, too.
  - laumars 12y ago
    We shouldn't compare the worst of humanity against the worst of humanity. That gets us nowhere. Instead we should be comparing the worst against the best and looking to see how those issues can be rectified.
weland 12y ago
> Perhaps you mean their morality does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them. Absolutely. The Western civilization is ignorantly missing things like the incredible cultural value of sexual abuse ( http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371 http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371 , http://legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp http://legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature... ) or the beautiful parenting experience of raising children with nephropathic cystinosis (not to mention the happy lives of the children!) with that feeling of inner peace brought to you by knowledge that God wanted it like that. Open those closed, narrow minds of yours, people!
- fdsfasa 12y ago
  I like how you managed to slip in 'the cultural value of', and then simply list alleged instances of sexual abuse within the Amish community neither of which implies that the practice is condoned or 'culturally valued'; because it's permissible, as long as we don't value it as a culture. The Amish aren't to be contrasted to 'Western civilisation'; they live in the West, they come from another part of the West, they practice Protestantism, an especially Western variety of a schism with a religion domiciled in the West. "But they're not civilised! They draw a line in the sand and reject technology beyond that line. They probably don't approve of genome editing. They've probably even banned it. All those happy children, never to be born."
  - weland 12y ago
    If you read the articles closely, you'll see that they're anything but "alleged". The "morality" dasil003 mentions, which "does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them", disagrees with the "wider culture" of the West on many topics, including the way that sexual abuse should be dealt with or how access to healthcare should be regulated.

serve_yay 12y ago

The point of the piece is not "every aspect of the Amish is good and they don't have any genetic problems, either".

Alleluja 12y ago

Not the whole world needs to follow liberal ideology. It's pluralism. A good thing. I'm surprised how often liberals turn out to be such a totalitarians. It makes me sad.

moron4hire 12y ago
I'm not sure I understand what of the grandparent post constitutes a liberal ideology.
- Alleluja 12y ago
  I think you are pretending Dislike to all other lifestyles than a liberal one. Attack any religion or ideology that doesn't put humans and their lives on the pedestal. I.e. Amish put there their God. It goes right against the liberal values (i.e. human life and rights are the most important thing not some imaginatory "God"). I like pluralism. I like to live in a country where people believe in different things and are free to express it. Liberals made the US a bit totalitarian in a sense that you can get fired for petty remarks about gay or races. It almost feels like in a few more years we will have Jacobins with guilottines beheading everyone who doesn't want to be a liberal or cultural marxism proponent. Very funny how you pretend you don't see it. That's what we call left-wing hypocrisy: you are becoming exactly this what you originally wanted to fight: injust totalitarian crushing anyone not agreeing with your worldview.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    So, I'm just guessing here, but "basic respect for all people" is the criteria you're applying to put someone into the "liberal" category? Can you explain what makes "petty remarks about gay or races" OK? Do whatever you want. But don't claim that gives you the right to harm others.
    - Alleluja 12y ago
      petty remark about gays == prompt employment termination == harming others ??? You mean the ex-employee was harmed as he lost his employment because 1st Amendment doesn't protect him anymore?

moron4hire 12y ago

You forgot their atrocious treatment of women and the issue of rape and sexual assault. Yep, the Amish have crime, too, but they tend to blaming the victim in these cases. The article also failed to mention the reason there are so many German Anabaptist sects in America: they got kicked out of Europe when they couldn't find a home sympathetic to their hyper strict version of Christianity. These sects were often started by lay-people who disagreed with the lack of beatings being dolled out by their church leader. I grew up around a lot of Amish people. At least when it comes to dealing with "the English", they are vain, sanctimonious assholes. I see little difference between them and the fundamentalist sects of Islam that we get forced in our faces by the news to paint all of Islam with the same brush.

douche 12y ago

Corporal punishment is really not that bad, pursued at a reasonable level. I don't really understand the zero-tolerance attitude that seems to prevail towards even paddling a misbehaving toddler's ass. Employed correctly, its something that doesn't need to be employed very often, and its a helluva lot better deterrent than making them stand in the corner or whatever liberal shaming-based method of discipline.

chroma 12y ago
If you hit an adult, it's assault. If you hit your dog, it's animal abuse. If you hit your spouse, it's domestic violence. Even drill sergeants aren't allowed to hit recruits. But if you hit your children– people who can't possibly defend themselves, people who depend on you to survive... it's allowed. It's even encouraged by a significant fraction of parents today. To me, this seems like a glaringly immoral exception to a general rule: only use violence in defense of self or others. After all, pets can be controlled without hitting. Why can't kids?
- Alleluja 12y ago
  it's called "parents rights". It has been since forever. Sorry that not the whole worls lives in your utopian cultural marxist la-la-land.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    What does any of that have to do with the labor theory of value?
    - Alleluja 12y ago
      you tell me, you started mixing it in your original post
      - moron4hire 12y ago
        I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I am honestly confused.