6 ms·

>I think the most important thing to realize -- before we look at statistics, which we definitely should -- is that if a number of people, our coworkers, feel u

by tsotha 12y ago

>I think the most important thing to realize -- before we look at statistics, which we definitely should -- is that if a number of people, our coworkers, feel uncomfortable at our workplaces -- and it doesn't matter whether that number is large or small -- then we should feel terrible and do something about it. Or maybe they should. The legitimacy of their reasoning matters. I don't mind making changes for people who have a legitimate issue, but work is for adults.

pron 12y ago
So what you're saying is, you don't mind causing other people -- your coworkers -- severe distress if their "reasoning" is faulty according to you? But, of course, that's not really what's happening. As you can see in the data, "adults" is actually "men" only when "work" is "software". I can assure you that medicine and law are no less stressful work environments than software, yet for some reason women seem to want to work in those professions more and more (as well as in science in academia and other fields of engineering) while they're fleeing software in droves. I think you should consider the possibility that you're contributing to a hostile environment that you simply can't feel because you haven't tried really putting yourself in other people's shoes. Because if that's what's happening and you're wrong, then you've just been part of something really terrible. If, on the other hand, you're right, then all you did was to "unjustifiably" adjust your behavior to relieve the suffering of some of your fellow humans. Even if you're not convinced that this big difference in ethical outcome merits changing your behavior right away, I think it at least justifies truly listening to what women are saying, and trying really, really, really hard to examine whether you just might be doing something wrong.
- tsotha 12y ago
  >So what you're saying is, you don't mind causing other people -- your coworkers -- severe distress if their "reasoning" is faulty according to you? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I'm not causing them stress. They're causing stress to themselves. >As you can see in the data, "adults" is actually "men" only when "work" is "software". What data? What are you talking about? >I think you should consider the possibility that you're contributing to a hostile environment that you simply can't feel because you haven't tried really putting yourself in other people's shoes. It's not reasonable to expect men to tiptoe around special snowflakes primed by coddled upbringings to take umbrage at every perceived slight.
  - pron 12y ago
    > Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I'm not causing them stress. They're causing stress to themselves. Only in software? And assuming for a second you're right, if your coworkers suffer terribly around you -- due to no fault of yours, of course -- don't you think it's your moral obligation to help them? Maybe just listen to them to understand how they're torturing themselves. Hey, maybe you can be a knight in shining armor to their damsels in distress. > What data? What are you talking about? The data I linked to above that shows that women participation in technical fields (science, medicine and law) is increasing for the past decades while only in software it's decreasing. > It's not reasonable to expect men to tiptoe around special snowflakes primed by coddled upbringings to take umbrage at every perceived slight. Well, you don't quite qualify as a man just yet. And you're right, it is indeed unreasonable to expect boys to care about anyone other than themselves. Maybe we've been looking at it all wrong, and work environments dominated by men are perfectly fine for women; it's those dominated by boys that make them run away in terror and disgust. Because you repeat such inane men's-rights cliches as "special snowflakes primed by coddled upbringings" am I to understand you are personally taking revenge against women because some of them have hurt your precious feelings? If so, I think it is you who are the gentle snowflake women should tiptoe around, letting you feel all powerful and behave like in a frat house to resolve your own issues (as I'm sure they do, because they have no choice but to be sensitive to boys with issues). I am sorry for your past experiences, but it's time for you to grow up and act like an adult. If doctors and lawyers can do it, I'm sure you can, too.
    - tsotha 12y ago
      >Only in software? You're a long way from showing women are leaving/not entering software because of sexism. >The data I linked to above that shows that women participation in technical fields (science, medicine and law) is increasing for the past decades while only in software it's decreasing. So what? >Well, you don't quite qualify as a man just yet. I stopped reading there. You're an idiot and I'm not going to wasted any more time on you.
      - pron 12y ago

by tsotha 12y ago

pron 12y ago

So what you're saying is, you don't mind causing other people -- your coworkers -- severe distress if their "reasoning" is faulty according to you? But, of course, that's not really what's happening. As you can see in the data, "adults" is actually "men" only when "work" is "software". I can assure you that medicine and law are no less stressful work environments than software, yet for some reason women seem to want to work in those professions more and more (as well as in science in academia and other fields of engineering) while they're fleeing software in droves. I think you should consider the possibility that you're contributing to a hostile environment that you simply can't feel because you haven't tried really putting yourself in other people's shoes. Because if that's what's happening and you're wrong, then you've just been part of something really terrible. If, on the other hand, you're right, then all you did was to "unjustifiably" adjust your behavior to relieve the suffering of some of your fellow humans. Even if you're not convinced that this big difference in ethical outcome merits changing your behavior right away, I think it at least justifies truly listening to what women are saying, and trying really, really, really hard to examine whether you just might be doing something wrong.

tsotha 12y ago
>So what you're saying is, you don't mind causing other people -- your coworkers -- severe distress if their "reasoning" is faulty according to you? Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I'm not causing them stress. They're causing stress to themselves. >As you can see in the data, "adults" is actually "men" only when "work" is "software". What data? What are you talking about? >I think you should consider the possibility that you're contributing to a hostile environment that you simply can't feel because you haven't tried really putting yourself in other people's shoes. It's not reasonable to expect men to tiptoe around special snowflakes primed by coddled upbringings to take umbrage at every perceived slight.
- pron 12y ago
  > Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I'm not causing them stress. They're causing stress to themselves. Only in software? And assuming for a second you're right, if your coworkers suffer terribly around you -- due to no fault of yours, of course -- don't you think it's your moral obligation to help them? Maybe just listen to them to understand how they're torturing themselves. Hey, maybe you can be a knight in shining armor to their damsels in distress. > What data? What are you talking about? The data I linked to above that shows that women participation in technical fields (science, medicine and law) is increasing for the past decades while only in software it's decreasing. > It's not reasonable to expect men to tiptoe around special snowflakes primed by coddled upbringings to take umbrage at every perceived slight. Well, you don't quite qualify as a man just yet. And you're right, it is indeed unreasonable to expect boys to care about anyone other than themselves. Maybe we've been looking at it all wrong, and work environments dominated by men are perfectly fine for women; it's those dominated by boys that make them run away in terror and disgust. Because you repeat such inane men's-rights cliches as "special snowflakes primed by coddled upbringings" am I to understand you are personally taking revenge against women because some of them have hurt your precious feelings? If so, I think it is you who are the gentle snowflake women should tiptoe around, letting you feel all powerful and behave like in a frat house to resolve your own issues (as I'm sure they do, because they have no choice but to be sensitive to boys with issues). I am sorry for your past experiences, but it's time for you to grow up and act like an adult. If doctors and lawyers can do it, I'm sure you can, too.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    >Only in software? You're a long way from showing women are leaving/not entering software because of sexism. >The data I linked to above that shows that women participation in technical fields (science, medicine and law) is increasing for the past decades while only in software it's decreasing. So what? >Well, you don't quite qualify as a man just yet. I stopped reading there. You're an idiot and I'm not going to wasted any more time on you.
    - pron 12y ago