3 ms·

Good point. Motivation/evaluation to benifits only applies to things the person can change. Sure, you might be better off if you were white or a woman, but it

by DougBTX 17y ago

Good point. Motivation/evaluation to benifits only applies to things the person can change. Sure, you might be better off if you were white or a woman, but it is cheaper to get an education (well, here in the UK it would be cheaper, I hear education can be expensive in the US...)

bilbo0s 17y ago
I suppose this is a good way to look at it. The REALITY is these guys can only do what they can do. The fact that what they can do may not help them pull equal to whites is beyond their control. The issue is that I was raised to believe that all Americans, regardless of race, have the same access to opportunities. Then, when I grew up, graduated college and took a commission in the USMC, this idea was further drummed into me. But this data is saying that this is untrue. Setting up serious conflict in my mind. Which is what my original comment was about. Put another way, if you change the things you can change, you can make yourself the equivalent of anyone was my view of the US. But this is not the case, even if these guys get an education their chances are still slimmer than other guys without an education. The general feeling of acceptance here is somewhat shocking to me as well. This is not what I thought America was about, or the American people. Don't get me wrong, I know there are bigots, but I thought they were in the minority. Perhaps more naivete on my part. In short, I find it totally unacceptable for a black high school grad to have less of a chance at opportunities than a white non graduate. Saying that if blacks get educated they can do better than non educated blacks, though not as well as non educated whites, is lunacy. It's like saying, this is the best that YOU can expect in this society, so be happy, there is no problem. Why does that seem so acceptable to so many people here? Or maybe it is just the few who are talking the loudest I don't know. Or perhaps a lot of these people commenting are not even American. Which I would bet on, given the content of some of these comments. It could also be that I have been living in the uber-privileged la-la land of an ex-military officer. Or maybe a little bit of all of these things.
- jeromec 17y ago
  This country has tried to right many (atrocious) wrongs and things have improved largely, but no, all things are not yet equal. Imagine a large maze of (forgive the analogy) rats, some gray, some brown. The maze has bits of food and even material for shelter building. If all rats were released into the maze at the same time, all things being equal - physical sizes evenly distributed etc., each color of rat would survive equally as well. Now imagine releasing only the gray rats into the maze, holding the brown ones back, and imagine all these rats are intelligent - they can pass on information about the maze like where to find food to their offspring, so they become trained. Let's say you conducted this experiment over a long period of time, several years, and then one day you released the brown rats. You can see they would be at a disadvantage, even though they might have the same physical opportunity to the food and materials, the gray rats have "set up shop". Slaves in the U.S. were freed, but essentially just "released". (the 40 acres and a mule was never awarded) This is a crude analogy, but can show how such statistics can exist.
  - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
    E-gad not the "40 acres and a mule" meme again. Do some research. This was a promise made by a Civil War General to a specific bunch of people which was later rescinded by the president. There was no general law or promise that such would be provided to every freed slave. It happened for a brief period, in a relatively small location (Georgia) And it happened 150 years ago. Aside from whether somebody was put into harm's way because his great-great-great grandfather missed out on the free mules, I just wanted to clarify that historical point. It's one of those historical revisions that seem to grow with the retelling.
    - jeromec 17y ago
      Yes, I know it was rescinded (after Lincoln's assassination) before it could be extended to the rest of the subset of freed slaves. I was pointing out the "imbalance of the maze" was apparent even back then.
- DougBTX 17y ago
  The issue is that I was raised to believe that all Americans, regardless of race, have the same access to opportunities. I think that is a very important message to send out. You have to get people to believe that they can (and should!) succeed, even once the opportunity is there, otherwise they might not try. [1] Saying that if blacks get educated they can do better than non educated blacks, though not as well as non educated whites, is lunacy. Worth pointing out that the numbers, though best for the white group, are not as bad as that. For men and women, ages 25-44: none high school college white 17.5% 8.1% 3.7% black 26.9% 14.0% 7.4% [2] So, for each step up in education, the black person has a better chance than the white person on the level below. 26.9% is still a scary large number, though I'd like to think that the no-high school group is only a small proportion of the overall population. (Also, yes, I've only been to the US a couple of times, but I'm not sure in which that affects my interpretation of these numbers.) [1] Reminds me of the "How to get women into CS" discussion, I'm sure all the same arguments apply. See: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~lblum/PAPERS/TransformingTheCulture.pdf http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~lblum/PAPERS/TransformingTheCulture.p... [2] See what I did there, ignore half the data to make my point clearer? Because I felt bad about it, I'm going to include the whole set here: none high school college hispanic 13.1% 9.6% 4.9% other 13.6% 9.4% 4.8% white 17.5% 8.1% 3.7% black 26.9% 14.0% 7.4% Now, before I did that, I hadn't noticed: if you're not going to finish high school, better make sure you're not white or black. Eh, and there goes my unqualified optimism too. If you're hispanic/mixed/other and didn't finish high school, you've still got a better chance than a black person who did. Oops. [3] And another point: I'd like to see the relative sizes of these "race" groups. I'm sure in the long term, that "mixed" group is going to become the largest.
  - bilbo0s 17y ago
    Looks like you slowly talked yourself around to my conclusion. Black people, especially the young ones, seem to have a really unfortunate position. It seems qualified optimism is the only reasonable response to this data. At least if they get educated, they can do somewhat better for themselves. Though lesser educated people of other races will probably do better. Also, for more good news, take a look at the numbers for blacks compared to others where the age is 15 - 24.

by DougBTX 17y ago

bilbo0s 17y ago

I suppose this is a good way to look at it. The REALITY is these guys can only do what they can do. The fact that what they can do may not help them pull equal to whites is beyond their control. The issue is that I was raised to believe that all Americans, regardless of race, have the same access to opportunities. Then, when I grew up, graduated college and took a commission in the USMC, this idea was further drummed into me. But this data is saying that this is untrue. Setting up serious conflict in my mind. Which is what my original comment was about. Put another way, if you change the things you can change, you can make yourself the equivalent of anyone was my view of the US. But this is not the case, even if these guys get an education their chances are still slimmer than other guys without an education. The general feeling of acceptance here is somewhat shocking to me as well. This is not what I thought America was about, or the American people. Don't get me wrong, I know there are bigots, but I thought they were in the minority. Perhaps more naivete on my part. In short, I find it totally unacceptable for a black high school grad to have less of a chance at opportunities than a white non graduate. Saying that if blacks get educated they can do better than non educated blacks, though not as well as non educated whites, is lunacy. It's like saying, this is the best that YOU can expect in this society, so be happy, there is no problem. Why does that seem so acceptable to so many people here? Or maybe it is just the few who are talking the loudest I don't know. Or perhaps a lot of these people commenting are not even American. Which I would bet on, given the content of some of these comments. It could also be that I have been living in the uber-privileged la-la land of an ex-military officer. Or maybe a little bit of all of these things.

jeromec 17y ago
This country has tried to right many (atrocious) wrongs and things have improved largely, but no, all things are not yet equal. Imagine a large maze of (forgive the analogy) rats, some gray, some brown. The maze has bits of food and even material for shelter building. If all rats were released into the maze at the same time, all things being equal - physical sizes evenly distributed etc., each color of rat would survive equally as well. Now imagine releasing only the gray rats into the maze, holding the brown ones back, and imagine all these rats are intelligent - they can pass on information about the maze like where to find food to their offspring, so they become trained. Let's say you conducted this experiment over a long period of time, several years, and then one day you released the brown rats. You can see they would be at a disadvantage, even though they might have the same physical opportunity to the food and materials, the gray rats have "set up shop". Slaves in the U.S. were freed, but essentially just "released". (the 40 acres and a mule was never awarded) This is a crude analogy, but can show how such statistics can exist.
- DanielBMarkham 17y ago
  E-gad not the "40 acres and a mule" meme again. Do some research. This was a promise made by a Civil War General to a specific bunch of people which was later rescinded by the president. There was no general law or promise that such would be provided to every freed slave. It happened for a brief period, in a relatively small location (Georgia) And it happened 150 years ago. Aside from whether somebody was put into harm's way because his great-great-great grandfather missed out on the free mules, I just wanted to clarify that historical point. It's one of those historical revisions that seem to grow with the retelling.
  - jeromec 17y ago
    Yes, I know it was rescinded (after Lincoln's assassination) before it could be extended to the rest of the subset of freed slaves. I was pointing out the "imbalance of the maze" was apparent even back then.
DougBTX 17y ago
The issue is that I was raised to believe that all Americans, regardless of race, have the same access to opportunities. I think that is a very important message to send out. You have to get people to believe that they can (and should!) succeed, even once the opportunity is there, otherwise they might not try. [1] Saying that if blacks get educated they can do better than non educated blacks, though not as well as non educated whites, is lunacy. Worth pointing out that the numbers, though best for the white group, are not as bad as that. For men and women, ages 25-44: none high school college white 17.5% 8.1% 3.7% black 26.9% 14.0% 7.4% [2] So, for each step up in education, the black person has a better chance than the white person on the level below. 26.9% is still a scary large number, though I'd like to think that the no-high school group is only a small proportion of the overall population. (Also, yes, I've only been to the US a couple of times, but I'm not sure in which that affects my interpretation of these numbers.) [1] Reminds me of the "How to get women into CS" discussion, I'm sure all the same arguments apply. See: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~lblum/PAPERS/TransformingTheCulture.pdf http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~lblum/PAPERS/TransformingTheCulture.p... [2] See what I did there, ignore half the data to make my point clearer? Because I felt bad about it, I'm going to include the whole set here: none high school college hispanic 13.1% 9.6% 4.9% other 13.6% 9.4% 4.8% white 17.5% 8.1% 3.7% black 26.9% 14.0% 7.4% Now, before I did that, I hadn't noticed: if you're not going to finish high school, better make sure you're not white or black. Eh, and there goes my unqualified optimism too. If you're hispanic/mixed/other and didn't finish high school, you've still got a better chance than a black person who did. Oops. [3] And another point: I'd like to see the relative sizes of these "race" groups. I'm sure in the long term, that "mixed" group is going to become the largest.
- bilbo0s 17y ago
  Looks like you slowly talked yourself around to my conclusion. Black people, especially the young ones, seem to have a really unfortunate position. It seems qualified optimism is the only reasonable response to this data. At least if they get educated, they can do somewhat better for themselves. Though lesser educated people of other races will probably do better. Also, for more good news, take a look at the numbers for blacks compared to others where the age is 15 - 24.