10 ms·

On Amish Time

61 points by cgtyoder 12y ago

tomcam 12y ago
So nicely written. Rumspringa is a practice observed by very few Amish sects, and has not been shown to increase happiness in its participants.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Right - take sheltered kids, let them "go wild" irresponsibly, then tell them it's either that or being shunned by everyone you know. Some choice. The Amish system seems rather vile, but unless you totally take away people's right to associate and indoctrinate children I don't see how we can ethically eliminate it. I suppose mandatory education that includes proper science and so on might be a good first start.
  - adrianN 12y ago
    The choice got harsher as time passed. When the Amish were founded, the outside society was very similar. People were very pious, most were farmers etc. But since the Amish form a time capsule of the 17th century, Rumspringa became more and more of a culture shock.
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      The Amish are definitely not a time-capsule of the 17th century. They use technology but are quite selective about what will benefit them and what will interfere with their way of life too much to become a part of it. It's true that the gap between the Amish and the communities surrounding them is ever expanding but they're definitely not standing still in time, just moving at a much slower pace.
      - falcolas 12y ago
        The net effect is the same, however. And it's not just technology which separates them from the rest of America, it's the totality of our values, which have changed rapidly throughout the years.
chroma 12y ago
As enjoyable as it might be to romanticize the Amish, the author carefully avoided mentioning the many ethical problems with Amish culture. As devout readers of the Bible, the Amish follow Proverbs 13:24, which is commonly misquoted as, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Corporal punishment of children is common in both Amish households and schools. Likewise, the Amish positions on divorce, abortion, and homosexuality shouldn't surprise you. Their position on genetic testing is particularly egregious[1]: > Since almost all Amish descend from about 200 18th-century founders, genetic disorders that come out due to inbreeding exist in more isolated districts (an example of the founder effect). Some of these disorders are quite rare, or unique, and are serious enough to increase the mortality rate among Amish children. The majority of Amish accept these as "Gottes Wille" (God's will); they reject use of preventive genetic tests prior to marriage and genetic testing of unborn children to discover genetic disorders. We might be happier living more simply in small communities, but the Amish are a terrible example to follow. They reliably inflict needless suffering upon themselves and their children. And even if such a lifestyle was more enjoyable, it would only be available to a select minority. To feed over 7 billion human beings, we need mechanized agriculture and chemical fertilizers. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health
- dasil003 12y ago
  Ethical problems? Perhaps you mean their morality does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them. But I have a real hard time condemning their choices when I look at what we're doing as a culture. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
  - anon4 12y ago
    Yes, yes that's exactly what he's saying. Their personal lifestyle choices are fine, but their ethics are absolutely not fine. To choose to live a simple life of manual labour and teach the same to your children is fine, but to bind their spirit by breaking their bodies is something I can't stand for. It's cruel and inhumane.
    - 12y ago
hrktb 12y ago
One of the most shocking difference I found between USA/europe culture and Japan is the approach to technology. on the western side there is inherent disbilief in technology and what it will do for the society. In popular litterature evil will often come from human hubris who defies god.Technology will go berserk, the robots will kill us all. And so much romantizing of the good old days, the eden, the tropical beach where we all play naked and innocent. I can't believe the USA have earthquakes on the west side, drought, -40C winters, hurricanes and floodings on the other parts, and still have this idealized idea of a low tech heaven on earth. Or does this view only hold off on mildly nice temperatured places ? I contrast this to Japan because without cleverly engineered houses and buildings you're probably dead within 10 years. One can still build a house structure solely from wood, heavily relying on traditional arts, but interestingly enough these builders are super knowledgable, have a very broad knowledge of architecture and materials, just as much as any architect has, and improve on the traditional formulas wherever it makes sense. Quite the opposite of "let's gather the neoghboors and build some stuff" I think both approaches need to exist for diversity, but my heart goes to the ones trying to make the world better one bit of knowledge at the time, more than the one closing in their time shells.
guard-of-terra 12y ago
"Wendell Berry wrote that American society’s inability to see the Amish for what they are is indicative of the most basic flaws of the American progress narrative" On the other hand, America is a rare society where Amish phenomenon is possible. Because in most of the world it won't. Such a way of life will be either ruined by economics or by regulations.
datashovel 12y ago
This conversation seems (in general) to be taking polar opposite approaches to this "lifestyle choice". If I draw a parallel between this conversation and managing an IT project, it appears most of you would be in favor of a "complete rewrite" as opposed to spotting the problem areas and focusing attention on those and fixing the existing code base. There's nothing inherently wrong with the way Amish people decide to live. Many on this thread seem to think that's not the case. Are there edge cases? Sure. But in general I think the basic premise that they wish to avoid too much technology in their lives is not necessarily flawed. It's simply a more extreme version of "don't bring your cell phone to the dinner table". Also I should mention that even though they represent a tiny fraction of the overall world population, there is a huge amount of diversity even among Amish communities. So the idea that someone can generalize about how "all amish" live their lives is patently false.

61 points by cgtyoder 12y ago

So nicely written. Rumspringa is a practice observed by very few Amish sects, and has not been shown to increase happiness in its participants.

MichaelGG 12y ago
Right - take sheltered kids, let them "go wild" irresponsibly, then tell them it's either that or being shunned by everyone you know. Some choice. The Amish system seems rather vile, but unless you totally take away people's right to associate and indoctrinate children I don't see how we can ethically eliminate it. I suppose mandatory education that includes proper science and so on might be a good first start.
- adrianN 12y ago
  The choice got harsher as time passed. When the Amish were founded, the outside society was very similar. People were very pious, most were farmers etc. But since the Amish form a time capsule of the 17th century, Rumspringa became more and more of a culture shock.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    The Amish are definitely not a time-capsule of the 17th century. They use technology but are quite selective about what will benefit them and what will interfere with their way of life too much to become a part of it. It's true that the gap between the Amish and the communities surrounding them is ever expanding but they're definitely not standing still in time, just moving at a much slower pace.
    - falcolas 12y ago
      The net effect is the same, however. And it's not just technology which separates them from the rest of America, it's the totality of our values, which have changed rapidly throughout the years.

chroma 12y ago

As enjoyable as it might be to romanticize the Amish, the author carefully avoided mentioning the many ethical problems with Amish culture. As devout readers of the Bible, the Amish follow Proverbs 13:24, which is commonly misquoted as, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Corporal punishment of children is common in both Amish households and schools. Likewise, the Amish positions on divorce, abortion, and homosexuality shouldn't surprise you. Their position on genetic testing is particularly egregious[1]: > Since almost all Amish descend from about 200 18th-century founders, genetic disorders that come out due to inbreeding exist in more isolated districts (an example of the founder effect). Some of these disorders are quite rare, or unique, and are serious enough to increase the mortality rate among Amish children. The majority of Amish accept these as "Gottes Wille" (God's will); they reject use of preventive genetic tests prior to marriage and genetic testing of unborn children to discover genetic disorders. We might be happier living more simply in small communities, but the Amish are a terrible example to follow. They reliably inflict needless suffering upon themselves and their children. And even if such a lifestyle was more enjoyable, it would only be available to a select minority. To feed over 7 billion human beings, we need mechanized agriculture and chemical fertilizers. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health

dasil003 12y ago
Ethical problems? Perhaps you mean their morality does not agree with that of the wider culture surrounding them. But I have a real hard time condemning their choices when I look at what we're doing as a culture. Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
- anon4 12y ago
  Yes, yes that's exactly what he's saying. Their personal lifestyle choices are fine, but their ethics are absolutely not fine. To choose to live a simple life of manual labour and teach the same to your children is fine, but to bind their spirit by breaking their bodies is something I can't stand for. It's cruel and inhumane.
  - 12y ago

hrktb 12y ago

One of the most shocking difference I found between USA/europe culture and Japan is the approach to technology. on the western side there is inherent disbilief in technology and what it will do for the society. In popular litterature evil will often come from human hubris who defies god.Technology will go berserk, the robots will kill us all. And so much romantizing of the good old days, the eden, the tropical beach where we all play naked and innocent. I can't believe the USA have earthquakes on the west side, drought, -40C winters, hurricanes and floodings on the other parts, and still have this idealized idea of a low tech heaven on earth. Or does this view only hold off on mildly nice temperatured places ? I contrast this to Japan because without cleverly engineered houses and buildings you're probably dead within 10 years. One can still build a house structure solely from wood, heavily relying on traditional arts, but interestingly enough these builders are super knowledgable, have a very broad knowledge of architecture and materials, just as much as any architect has, and improve on the traditional formulas wherever it makes sense. Quite the opposite of "let's gather the neoghboors and build some stuff" I think both approaches need to exist for diversity, but my heart goes to the ones trying to make the world better one bit of knowledge at the time, more than the one closing in their time shells.

guard-of-terra 12y ago

"Wendell Berry wrote that American society’s inability to see the Amish for what they are is indicative of the most basic flaws of the American progress narrative" On the other hand, America is a rare society where Amish phenomenon is possible. Because in most of the world it won't. Such a way of life will be either ruined by economics or by regulations.

datashovel 12y ago

This conversation seems (in general) to be taking polar opposite approaches to this "lifestyle choice". If I draw a parallel between this conversation and managing an IT project, it appears most of you would be in favor of a "complete rewrite" as opposed to spotting the problem areas and focusing attention on those and fixing the existing code base. There's nothing inherently wrong with the way Amish people decide to live. Many on this thread seem to think that's not the case. Are there edge cases? Sure. But in general I think the basic premise that they wish to avoid too much technology in their lives is not necessarily flawed. It's simply a more extreme version of "don't bring your cell phone to the dinner table". Also I should mention that even though they represent a tiny fraction of the overall world population, there is a huge amount of diversity even among Amish communities. So the idea that someone can generalize about how "all amish" live their lives is patently false.